semi-dual edged badik?

[kai]

Hello Moshah,

I believe your blade was made from wesi/besi malela (a heavily forged steel with often higher carbon content which yields the dark, even stain despite being laminated).

Your badik could well be from northern Malaya (not sure though).

Regards,
Kai

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Moshah,

I believe your blade was made from wesi/besi malela (a heavily forged steel with often higher carbon content which yields the dark, even stain despite being laminated).

Your badik could well be from northern Malaya (not sure though).

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

From my observation, the besi used was similar to the type that we always see in kerises. Perhaps no nickel contents, hence no pamor.

The characteristic of the besi was also akin to some Malay kerises that I have, made me so inclined to say it's a Malay badik. But from my understanding, Malay badiks usually will have a "mar" or "temin" - a round base before the tang (pix) which is not present on the badik of question here. This is why I was not prepare to expect that it was a Malay badik...

[kai]

Hello Moshah,

The characteristic of the besi was also akin to some Malay kerises that I have, made me so inclined to say it's a Malay badik. But from my understanding, Malay badiks usually will have a "mar" or "temin" - a round base before the tang <snip>

I'd be inclined to place those pieces with integral bolster into the large sewar/sewaih family (including tumbok lada, karih, etc.). This family of blades seems to have Sumatran/Straits roots rather than the badik probably originating from S Sulawesi.

As you know, not that long ago, people used to freely move back and forth between Sumatra and W Malaysia.

Regards,
Kai

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by kai

If the N Malay attribution can be confirmed, this might be a local style. As already suggested, it clearly shows heavy Bugis influence. However, the blade is always broad, flat with a wide and shallow central fuller, has a partial edge at the back of the blade, and is made from besi malela. The blade has enough strength for stabbing as well as cutting and is very quick/agile due to its low weight. I believe the stronger material makes this configuration feasible. It's well possible that the looks of European sabres influenced the blade profile; however, all 3 pieces seem to be locally crafted on purpose, not recycled from broken swords.

Moshah, could you please post a pic of its scabbard? I'll try to come up with pics of mine, too.

Dear Kai,

Of course we still could not confirm the origin of the blade, as much as I would really love to have it labelled "made in N.Malayan" as that would explain much on the absence of pamor material.

The dress (pix attached) were bona-fide Bugis. Albeit being newly made (which would lessen the inclination of possibility that it comes from there), the overall image has the Bugis look into them, and so does the blade. If it was a conformed Bugis' badik, I think it is quite "obscene" for it not to have any pamor. Perhaps, made for the peasant...

Of course, I am speaking with my limited knowledge in Badik, Bugis arms and socioculture, and limited experience too...

[kai]

Hello Moshah,

Of course we still could not confirm the origin of the blade, as much as I would really love to have it labelled "made in N.Malayan" as that would explain much on the absence of pamor material.

Can't you get back to the seller and try to inquire? Also where the scabbard was made (and possibly wether the replacement was done based on an existing but broken one coming with the badik)? Does the hilt look older?

The dress (pix attached) were bona-fide Bugis. Albeit being newly made (which would lessen the inclination of possibility that it comes from there), the overall image has the Bugis look into them, and so does the blade.

I don't think we can base assumptions on any newly made scabbard. Minor sidenote: the wood of the stem looks N Malay to me FWIW...

If it was a conformed Bugis' badik, I think it is quite "obscene" for it not to have any pamor. Perhaps, made for the peasant...

Considering that the badik took the place of the keris as personal companion or alter ego in Bugis society, one would believe that there should be a good reason (i. e. adat & hormat) for anything relating to a badik. Hopefully, our few Bugis members could elaborate on the presence of wesi malela in S Sulawesi and what it might signify?


The scabbard on the example sold by Artzi is definitely not Sulawesi nor is mine; its ivory buntut also doesn't suggest that this piece was just a low-end version. The hilt on my piece does show the "multicolored" wood typically favored by N Malays, too.

Regards,
Kai

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by kai

Can't you get back to the seller and try to inquire? Also where the scabbard was made (and possibly wether the replacement was done based on an existing but broken one coming with the badik)? Does the hilt look older?

I always be extra careful on whatever the local seller will tell me. Not that I am so skeptical about them, but most of the time you either get a purported fairytale or misleading info. In this case, I do not think the seller would have much to say about it. However I think the scabbard and hilt would be a local commissioned, and look new even to untrained eyes.

Originally Posted by kai

I don't think we can base assumptions on any newly made scabbard.

Definitely, Kai, even with antique scabbard a closer look on the fitment is essential before one can say it's a real package. Many people travel around the globe and mix-marriage wherever they settled down, and I believe that also would happen to sheathed weapons of the old days...

Originally Posted by kai

The scabbard on the example sold by Artzi is definitely not Sulawesi nor is mine; its ivory buntut also doesn't suggest that this piece was just a low-end version. The hilt on my piece does show the "multicolored" wood typically favored by N Malays, too.

Really? I thought the scabbard and hilt of the one sold by Artzi was a Bugis one...However Artzi's example was the closest to my badik's design @ dhapur, and I would love to know from where it comes from...

BTW, would love to see your badik as well, Kai..

[Moshah]

Hi guys,

Received it today, safely.

I would say the hilt and sheath looks decently new - not a slight of dark, blackish hue that usually takes place on antique hilts. Unless it was clean thoroughly, I stand to be corrected. On the other hand, they were made out of nice wood plot and of a considerable good workmanship, it seems.

Apparently the shallow fuller can be clearly seen, as the slight concave runs from the first inch of the base, straight (and tapered) to the tip. The partial double-edge started a little bit further from the mid blade towards the tip.

The blade was really smooth to the touch. As I ran my finger along the blade from the base towards the tip through the mid-section, the feel was almost velvety. I know some Malay keris with this same attributes and it is locally coined as "besi baldu" - means velvety iron. Perhaps the absence of pamor contributes to this feel but I do have few non-pamorred kerises, and it feel nothing like this. Except one, old Sumatran / Palembang sepokal which shares this sensation of touch...

Kai, I've tried to ask the seller from where it comes from but as I've predicted - to no avail.

So guys, is the blade a Bugis, a Malay or perhaps a Sumatran?

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by kai

I believe your blade was made from wesi/besi malela (a heavily forged steel with often higher carbon content which yields the dark, even stain despite being laminated).

Your badik could well be from northern Malaya (not sure though).

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

if the blade was made with such besi with higher carbon contain, does it mean it can easily break? I've read somewhere stated that besi melela was actually comes from a sandy grains along the west coast of java. Is that true?

if not laminated, means that it was not done like how a keris should be?

Thanks for the input, kai. Really appreciate it...

[kai]

Hello Moshah,

if the blade was made with such besi with higher carbon contain, does it mean it can easily break?

I wouldn't worry (unless one tries to abuse it as a sharpened pry bar); competent differential hardening can go a long way. If used incorrectly, the weak point (for most of the personal sidearms throughout the archipelago) would most likely be the hilt IMVHO.

I've read somewhere stated that besi melela was actually comes from a sandy grains along the west coast of java. Is that true?

I'm sure there were a lot of local sources; secondary iron deposits are not rare in wet climates.

if not laminated, means that it was not done like how a keris should be?

These are laminated (on a microscopic level) and traditional. There may be some blades made from imported European steel hiding within the wesi/besi malela category but usually you will see some forging lines suggesting extensive local forge work regardless of the primary source.

Regards,
Kai

[Moshah]

Thanks for the elaborated explanation Kai...

Hmm I'm really critical on this one as most badik I've seen were pamorred, at least slight pamor. This one was plain baja, but somehow the mid part looks like it was fullered, which is something i've never seen on a badik.

But then my biggest worry would be another kind of dagger / edged weapon "impersonated" to look like a badik...

[CharlesS]

In Sajen's example, does anyone else see the possibility of a cut down pedang blade finding, perhaps, a second life as a badik?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

In Sajen's example, does anyone else see the possibility of a cut down pedang blade finding, perhaps, a second life as a badik?

It's maybe possible but I don't think so. Soon as I have better light I will post some pictures from the blade.

[Moshah]

I think it is quite unlikely Detlef's was a cut down pedang, as the fuller length would not make any sense, to be that short a fuller for a longer blade.

Definitely there were traces of pamor as well, on detlef's badik.

[kai]

Hello Moshah,

I'm really critical on this one as most badik I've seen were pamorred, at least slight pamor. This one was plain baja, but somehow the mid part looks like it was fullered, which is something i've never seen on a badik.

But then my biggest worry would be another kind of dagger / edged weapon "impersonated" to look like a badik...

Don't worry - this seems to be a rare and genuine variant: I have another one and with at least 3 extant examples this makes a pattern (rather than a headache ). If the N Malay attribution can be confirmed, this might be a local style. As already suggested, it clearly shows heavy Bugis influence. However, the blade is always broad, flat with a wide and shallow central fuller, has a partial edge at the back of the blade, and is made from besi malela. The blade has enough strength for stabbing as well as cutting and is very quick/agile due to its low weight. I believe the stronger material makes this configuration feasible. It's well possible that the looks of European sabres influenced the blade profile; however, all 3 pieces seem to be locally crafted on purpose, not recycled from broken swords.

The typical Bugis badik from Sulawesi tends to have either a relatively narrow blade optimized for stabbing or a blade with fat belly adding more meat towards the tip for slashing moves. Both types tend to have a fairly thick back of the blade (as usual for most SE Asian daggers). I have seen several with partial back edge like in Detlef's example though. Some appear to be recycled pedang/etc. blades but quite a few are obviously intentional designs like already pointed out for Detlef's badik.

Moshah, could you please post a pic of its scabbard? I'll try to come up with pics of mine, too.

Regards,
Kai