Balinese Wedung

Henk · 28th September 2005, 04:31 PM

Marto,

I didn't say anybody you spoke was wrong. I just bring up what I found in Stone and what a member of Tammens studygroup told me. In this case the knife was adressed as a balinese golok.

But I understand just a ceremonial balinese knife is better?

Ian · 28th September 2005, 04:56 PM

Guys:

I think we are in a tough area when it comes to common nomenclature for the knives/swords of cultures and areas of the world with which we have little direct experience. And that is probably true for the vast majority of us who post here.

When locals a few miles apart call the same item something different, it is going to be very hard for us to arrive at consensus about a particular name. The original subject of this discussion could certainly be described as a golok by some groups -- it is a heavy bladed chopper, and Stone uses the term for a similar knife -- but probably not in its host culture.

And one of the things that is great about this Forum, we get to hear a diversity of opinions from within and outside the host culture. Thanks to marto suwignyo for giving us the local names that might be applied to this interesting piece. Even so, he gives us a collection of terms that may apply. Which just emphasizes the point that there is usually no one correct answer when it comes to asking "what is it?"

Ian.

marto suwignyo · 28th September 2005, 10:09 PM

Sorry Henk, what threw me was "Justin gave the right answer", which I understood as all my Bali people being wrong.

I don`t have any problem with calling it anything at all, for discussion purposes, provided everybody understands what is being discussed.

For me, the hanging point is the concept of correctness.

Many things can be correct, depending upon the situation.

Henk · 29th September 2005, 04:06 PM

Marto,

No hard feelings at all.

"Justin gave the right answer" was in my opinion the answer that was given to me by other sources. So if someone would show me this piece, my answer would be golok too, until now.

A more or less similar piece is in the book by Van Zonneveld and he put it under ceremonial knives.

The wise words of Ian makes sense.

Marto, you are the one with some other forummembers that live in the area where these pieces come from, so you have the best references and I'm just a humble student who tries to bring up the learned lessons.

Montino Bourbon · 29th September 2005, 05:21 PM

What I saw in Bali referred to as 'blakas' looks like a rectangular blade about 12 inches long with a handle of the same length, looking like a (non-folding) straight razor 2 feet long. In fact, I bought one, but I don't have it with me right now, so can't post photographs.

Another version of a 'blakas' looks like a sickle-pruning hook with a handle same length as the blade, total length about 2 ft.

Both are farm tools, but can be used as weapons.

marto suwignyo · 29th September 2005, 10:46 PM

As I remarked in my initial post to this thread:-

"A number of differently shaped knives are used for the same and similar purposes, and I have not been able to get anybody to differentiate in the name used for any of them. Some people will use pengentas, others blakas pengentas, others blakas,others madik, others caluk, all for the same knife, and for different knives. "

The cutting implements that you describe , Montino, are amongst these other, differently shaped knives, along with a number of other cutting implements, some would be described as knives, some as hand axes, and one item that was given the name of "blakas pengentas suda mala" was a waved blade about 500 centi long, incorporating a long handle, and making the whole thing about 1000 centi long.A small, almost square hand axe was given the name "blakas pengentas" by a different person. The person who had the first thing I have just described gave the name of "pengentas" to a knife similar to the one under discussion. Another person gave the name "blakas pengentas" to a knife like a small wood carving knife, the type of thing that the books describe as "boyo knife", then 12 months later this person called the same knife a "pemukis".

Quite frankly, I find the whole thing too difficult.I do believe that the name used is situational, and that only a Balinese person who was thoroughly versed in both ritual and language could provide understandable explanations.

However, I do not believe we are talking weaponry here, nor do I believe we are talking farm tools. The conversations I have had with my informants on names indicates some sort of ritual use for all these implements.

Henk, I do not live in Bali. I do understand something of keris culture and weaponry as these things are understood in Solo, Central Jawa, but that is not Bali, and apart from my ability to speak with Balinese people in Indonesian, and the fact that I have visited Bali more times than I can count, over many years, I probably understand Balinese culture no better than you do.To get really accurate answers on these matters you need the input of a scholar who has studied in this field, or a very knowledgeable Balinese person.

28th September 2005, 04:31 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Marto, I didn't say anybody you spoke was wrong. I just bring up what I found in Stone and what a member of Tammens studygroup told me. In this case the knife was adressed as a balinese golok. But I understand just a ceremonial balinese knife is better?

28th September 2005, 04:56 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Guys: I think we are in a tough area when it comes to common nomenclature for the knives/swords of cultures and areas of the world with which we have little direct experience. And that is probably true for the vast majority of us who post here. When locals a few miles apart call the same item something different, it is going to be very hard for us to arrive at consensus about a particular name. The original subject of this discussion could certainly be described as a golok by some groups -- it is a heavy bladed chopper, and Stone uses the term for a similar knife -- but probably not in its host culture. And one of the things that is great about this Forum, we get to hear a diversity of opinions from within and outside the host culture. Thanks to marto suwignyo for giving us the local names that might be applied to this interesting piece. Even so, he gives us a collection of terms that may apply. Which just emphasizes the point that there is usually no one correct answer when it comes to asking "what is it?" Ian.

28th September 2005, 10:09 PM	#3
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Sorry Henk, what threw me was "Justin gave the right answer", which I understood as all my Bali people being wrong. I don`t have any problem with calling it anything at all, for discussion purposes, provided everybody understands what is being discussed. For me, the hanging point is the concept of correctness. Many things can be correct, depending upon the situation.

29th September 2005, 04:06 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Marto, No hard feelings at all. "Justin gave the right answer" was in my opinion the answer that was given to me by other sources. So if someone would show me this piece, my answer would be golok too, until now. A more or less similar piece is in the book by Van Zonneveld and he put it under ceremonial knives. The wise words of Ian makes sense. Marto, you are the one with some other forummembers that live in the area where these pieces come from, so you have the best references and I'm just a humble student who tries to bring up the learned lessons.

29th September 2005, 05:21 PM	#5
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	What I saw in Bali referred to as 'blakas' looks like a rectangular blade about 12 inches long with a handle of the same length, looking like a (non-folding) straight razor 2 feet long. In fact, I bought one, but I don't have it with me right now, so can't post photographs. Another version of a 'blakas' looks like a sickle-pruning hook with a handle same length as the blade, total length about 2 ft. Both are farm tools, but can be used as weapons.

29th September 2005, 10:46 PM	#6
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	As I remarked in my initial post to this thread:- "A number of differently shaped knives are used for the same and similar purposes, and I have not been able to get anybody to differentiate in the name used for any of them. Some people will use pengentas, others blakas pengentas, others blakas,others madik, others caluk, all for the same knife, and for different knives. " The cutting implements that you describe , Montino, are amongst these other, differently shaped knives, along with a number of other cutting implements, some would be described as knives, some as hand axes, and one item that was given the name of "blakas pengentas suda mala" was a waved blade about 500 centi long, incorporating a long handle, and making the whole thing about 1000 centi long.A small, almost square hand axe was given the name "blakas pengentas" by a different person. The person who had the first thing I have just described gave the name of "pengentas" to a knife similar to the one under discussion. Another person gave the name "blakas pengentas" to a knife like a small wood carving knife, the type of thing that the books describe as "boyo knife", then 12 months later this person called the same knife a "pemukis". Quite frankly, I find the whole thing too difficult.I do believe that the name used is situational, and that only a Balinese person who was thoroughly versed in both ritual and language could provide understandable explanations. However, I do not believe we are talking weaponry here, nor do I believe we are talking farm tools. The conversations I have had with my informants on names indicates some sort of ritual use for all these implements. Henk, I do not live in Bali. I do understand something of keris culture and weaponry as these things are understood in Solo, Central Jawa, but that is not Bali, and apart from my ability to speak with Balinese people in Indonesian, and the fact that I have visited Bali more times than I can count, over many years, I probably understand Balinese culture no better than you do.To get really accurate answers on these matters you need the input of a scholar who has studied in this field, or a very knowledgeable Balinese person.