Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

Radu Transylvanicus · 31st December 2004, 07:32 PM

Rivkin, And maybe I shouldve brought in the theory more about the ,,deli and sipahi,, influence and about ,,kurda,, or hungarian saber made under Ottoman rule, very much like the Arabian saif and so on, it wasnt in the times of migratory invasions when Orient influenced Europe in swords ...

ariel · 31st December 2004, 08:43 PM

Just an aside: the name the Ottoman Turks used for an estoc (koncerz) is Mec (pronounced Mech, as in "touch"). There are accounts of the French travellers mentioning this weapon and spelling it "megg" (probably, -gg was used for a "dz" sound, similar to our spelling of "kilij", "kilig", and "kilich"). An interesting tweak is that in Russian, "Mech" is a standard name for a straight, double-edged and usually heavy sword. The lighter, curved and usually single-edged ones are called "sablya" (a common origin with saber,szablya etc is obvious).
Question:
Since both Turkish and Russian languages have been profoundly influenced by the old Mongol/Altai etc dialects, was there a proto-word for a similar type of weapon in Central Asia and was there a weapon of that construction there? Some Tartar sabers still preserved in Polish/Lithuanian museums have a bayonet tip designed specifically for stabbing/armour penetration: remarkably similar to the function and structure of the koncerz.

31st December 2004, 07:32 PM	#1
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Rivkin, And maybe I shouldve brought in the theory more about the ,,deli and sipahi,, influence and about ,,kurda,, or hungarian saber made under Ottoman rule, very much like the Arabian saif and so on, it wasnt in the times of migratory invasions when Orient influenced Europe in swords ...

31st December 2004, 08:43 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just an aside: the name the Ottoman Turks used for an estoc (koncerz) is Mec (pronounced Mech, as in "touch"). There are accounts of the French travellers mentioning this weapon and spelling it "megg" (probably, -gg was used for a "dz" sound, similar to our spelling of "kilij", "kilig", and "kilich"). An interesting tweak is that in Russian, "Mech" is a standard name for a straight, double-edged and usually heavy sword. The lighter, curved and usually single-edged ones are called "sablya" (a common origin with saber,szablya etc is obvious). Question: Since both Turkish and Russian languages have been profoundly influenced by the old Mongol/Altai etc dialects, was there a proto-word for a similar type of weapon in Central Asia and was there a weapon of that construction there? Some Tartar sabers still preserved in Polish/Lithuanian museums have a bayonet tip designed specifically for stabbing/armour penetration: remarkably similar to the function and structure of the koncerz.