Sgian dubh for comment

Sajen · 3rd January 2013, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

This is a mass produced piece with a chromed blade and a plastic scabbard and hilt. The "stone" is glass. Made for the market. Could have been made last year. The mounts are molded plastic (or possibly copper) coated with some kind of silver looking stuff (not real silver).

The old ones, even from the 1930's, have leather covered wood scabbards with brass or silver mounts (sometimes with silver marks on the back). The old hilts could be made of silver, ebony, or horn, and hand carved or hand chased.

Sorry for the bad news. I have many of these sold over the years and have owned some older true sgian dubhs (one of which I which I had kept!). And yes these are used today for wearing in the top of the stocking in formal traditional Scottish mens dress with a kilt (nothing underneath the kilt!

).

Hello Jose,

you don't need to say sorry. I am a friend of open words, the given amount wasn't high and it will have been another learning lesson we all familiar with. It will be a nice gift for my young son.

Regards,

Detlef

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2013, 08:14 PM

Hi Detlef,
I'm afraid it's as Jose said, a low cost item generally purchased as an accessory to Highland dress worn at weddings etc., they are even made these days without blades or with wooden blades for dress purposes. Better ones are still made with silver fittings, bog oak or rare wood hilts and semi-precious stones and quality steel blades which are very much useable, see www.castlekeep.co.uk and www.knifemaker.co.uk for examples of modern hand made types. Sgian dhu to look out for would be 19thC and early 20thC military knives which are assignable to a specific regiments, these can be quite expensive and are highly collectable. The origin of these knives is somewhat debatable. Sgian means knife and dhu means black i.e. 'black knife' not black in colour but black as in hidden. The knife was hidden out of sight on ones person but upon entering anothers house, to show no ill will or intent, the knife would be removed from concealment and placed in the top of the sock thereby showing that the visitor carried no concealed weapon and thereby wished no harm upon his host. Women also carried knives concealed in their skirts or hidden in their clothes under the armpit, these were known as sgian aichles or armpit knives.

After the 1745 rebellion the carrying of weapons was banned in Scotland and these small utility knives, I would suggest, took on a greater importance as a symbol of 'Scottishness' bolstered by Victoria and Albert's Scottish obsession which has carried on to this day. The law here states that you cannot carry a fixed blade knife or a lockback knife but only a folding knife with a blade three inches or less and that you require to have good reason, and I mean a really good reason, even for this. A fixed blade knife with a blade of no more than 4 inches is allowed in the field for hunting e.g. stalking, although I would suspect this is rather elastic where stalking on a private estate is concerned. The exception is the Sgian Dhu as long as you are wearing the kilt, I was informed by a large police sergeant, is allowed and with sharpened steel if you want. I was also told, in the dim distant past, by person or persons unknown that when wearing kilt etc that it was legal to wear a sword and dirk as well as a sgian

very handy down Sauchiehall street on a Saturday night

Hope this has been of some help, if there is any more I can help you with just let me know.
My Regards,
Norman.

Sajen · 4th January 2013, 12:29 AM

Hi Norman,

Thank you very much for this very intersting explanation. I have done in the meanwhile some research and see now the differents between the one I have bought and the real collectable ones and have seen how expensive they can be.

Alone what you have written now was worth the money I have given for my one since now I know much more about these nice daggers and know now for what I have to look next time.

Like I have written before, this one will be a gift for my son since he is very interested to my collection.

And now I know who I can ask before I give a a big amount of money when I will buy a good one, thank you for your kind offer.

Best regards,

Detlef

fernando · 4th January 2013, 12:23 PM

Well guys,
This thread has gone as far as it could. Besides a red flag for the linking to commercial sources, we should also realize that this knife, being a mass produced 'modern' object, is not embraced by the scope of this forum section.
I guess we should now end this discussion and depart to another one.
Thank you all for the interesting input.

3rd January 2013, 08:14 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Detlef, I'm afraid it's as Jose said, a low cost item generally purchased as an accessory to Highland dress worn at weddings etc., they are even made these days without blades or with wooden blades for dress purposes. Better ones are still made with silver fittings, bog oak or rare wood hilts and semi-precious stones and quality steel blades which are very much useable, see www.castlekeep.co.uk and www.knifemaker.co.uk for examples of modern hand made types. Sgian dhu to look out for would be 19thC and early 20thC military knives which are assignable to a specific regiments, these can be quite expensive and are highly collectable. The origin of these knives is somewhat debatable. Sgian means knife and dhu means black i.e. 'black knife' not black in colour but black as in hidden. The knife was hidden out of sight on ones person but upon entering anothers house, to show no ill will or intent, the knife would be removed from concealment and placed in the top of the sock thereby showing that the visitor carried no concealed weapon and thereby wished no harm upon his host. Women also carried knives concealed in their skirts or hidden in their clothes under the armpit, these were known as sgian aichles or armpit knives. After the 1745 rebellion the carrying of weapons was banned in Scotland and these small utility knives, I would suggest, took on a greater importance as a symbol of 'Scottishness' bolstered by Victoria and Albert's Scottish obsession which has carried on to this day. The law here states that you cannot carry a fixed blade knife or a lockback knife but only a folding knife with a blade three inches or less and that you require to have good reason, and I mean a really good reason, even for this. A fixed blade knife with a blade of no more than 4 inches is allowed in the field for hunting e.g. stalking, although I would suspect this is rather elastic where stalking on a private estate is concerned. The exception is the Sgian Dhu as long as you are wearing the kilt, I was informed by a large police sergeant, is allowed and with sharpened steel if you want. I was also told, in the dim distant past, by person or persons unknown that when wearing kilt etc that it was legal to wear a sword and dirk as well as a sgian very handy down Sauchiehall street on a Saturday night Hope this has been of some help, if there is any more I can help you with just let me know. My Regards, Norman.

4th January 2013, 12:29 AM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,214	Hi Norman, Thank you very much for this very intersting explanation. I have done in the meanwhile some research and see now the differents between the one I have bought and the real collectable ones and have seen how expensive they can be. Alone what you have written now was worth the money I have given for my one since now I know much more about these nice daggers and know now for what I have to look next time. Like I have written before, this one will be a gift for my son since he is very interested to my collection. And now I know who I can ask before I give a a big amount of money when I will buy a good one, thank you for your kind offer. Best regards, Detlef

4th January 2013, 12:23 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well guys, This thread has gone as far as it could. Besides a red flag for the linking to commercial sources, we should also realize that this knife, being a mass produced 'modern' object, is not embraced by the scope of this forum section. I guess we should now end this discussion and depart to another one. Thank you all for the interesting input.