Philippine Insurrection Era Kriss ...or later??

CharlesS · 2nd January 2013, 04:51 PM

Thanks David,

I was so hoping that someone could come up with that insigna, and like you, I think that goes a long way towards answering the question.

Couple of things to note....

1. The scabbard style and hilt style certainly fit with that era.

2. Assuming the blade is born with it at the same time, would we have to rethink our assumptions about the time period of blades with separate gangas???

Rick · 2nd January 2013, 04:57 PM

Re your question, Charles :

Smiths in Indonesia still make keris today with separate gangjas .
So I would posit that it is not safe to assume that this feature uniformly died out at a certain date with the kris of the Moros .

CharlesS · 2nd January 2013, 05:16 PM

I couldn't agree more Rick, but it has been a generalised rule for dating Moro krisses...key term...generalized!

Battara · 2nd January 2013, 07:19 PM

I do think that the separable ganga observations still have weight. The separable ganga probably did not suddenly stop but digressed over time. I still think that most separable gangas on kris died out by the 1930s or a little later. It may either push the date a little later or this example may be an exception to the pattern.

Also Dimasalang has a great point. I have been aware of the attempt from the Republican forces to woe help from the Moros, but seeing a kris on an officer is a new one for me. Thanks for sharing the picture. Hope you do find more information on this man.

Sajen · 2nd January 2013, 07:33 PM

Very interesting kris and interesting discussion.

What nobody mentioned until now: is this kris worked for a lefthanding person?

Regards,

Detlef

CharlesS · 2nd January 2013, 09:53 PM

I agree Battara that pic is a mind blower!

Sajen, yes this was apparently for a left hander.

David · 3rd January 2013, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Sajen, yes this was apparently for a left hander.

I'm not sure that is necessarily so. Look at how these two Moro warriors wear their kris with the "elephant trunk" side of the blade facing upwards.

David · 3rd January 2013, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Assuming the blade is born with it at the same time, would we have to rethink our assumptions about the time period of blades with separate gangas???

Rather than being forced to rethink separate gangyas and time periods i think it is safer to assume that this sheath was simply made at a later date than the kris. If a sheath is made specifically for a blade it should be a perfect fit regardless of whether it was made at the same time or later than the blade. So i see no reason why we should make the assumption of the two being born at the same time in the first place.

kai · 3rd January 2013, 01:01 AM

Hello Charles,

Thanks for posting this - neat!

Can you please post a pic of the gangya area taken *exactly* from above? From what I can glean from the close-up I am somewhat tempted to believe this blade might be more likely Sulu than Maranao. I also don't think it is later than the turn of the (19th) century; quality does look quite decent, too (IMHO better than many 19th c. village kris). What are its dimensions?

Scabbard style is certainly Sulu and also the wood does look typical. Is the carving work completely pure-bred Maranao for sure? Any chance this was crafted in a cultural/political melting pot (Zamboanga comes to mind)?

Jose and Bangkaya, is the carving on the pommel really Maranao style?

Regards,
Kai

2nd January 2013, 07:19 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I do think that the separable ganga observations still have weight. The separable ganga probably did not suddenly stop but digressed over time. I still think that most separable gangas on kris died out by the 1930s or a little later. It may either push the date a little later or this example may be an exception to the pattern. Also Dimasalang has a great point. I have been aware of the attempt from the Republican forces to woe help from the Moros, but seeing a kris on an officer is a new one for me. Thanks for sharing the picture. Hope you do find more information on this man. Last edited by Battara; 2nd January 2013 at 07:34 PM.

2nd January 2013, 07:33 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,193	Very interesting kris and interesting discussion. What nobody mentioned until now: is this kris worked for a lefthanding person? Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 2nd January 2013 at 10:31 PM.

2nd January 2013, 04:51 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks David, I was so hoping that someone could come up with that insigna, and like you, I think that goes a long way towards answering the question. Couple of things to note.... 1. The scabbard style and hilt style certainly fit with that era. 2. Assuming the blade is born with it at the same time, would we have to rethink our assumptions about the time period of blades with separate gangas???

2nd January 2013, 04:57 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Re your question, Charles : Smiths in Indonesia still make keris today with separate gangjas . So I would posit that it is not safe to assume that this feature uniformly died out at a certain date with the kris of the Moros .

2nd January 2013, 05:16 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I couldn't agree more Rick, but it has been a generalised rule for dating Moro krisses...key term...generalized!

2nd January 2013, 09:53 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I agree Battara that pic is a mind blower! Sajen, yes this was apparently for a left hander.

3rd January 2013, 01:01 AM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Charles, Thanks for posting this - neat! Can you please post a pic of the gangya area taken exactly from above? From what I can glean from the close-up I am somewhat tempted to believe this blade might be more likely Sulu than Maranao. I also don't think it is later than the turn of the (19th) century; quality does look quite decent, too (IMHO better than many 19th c. village kris). What are its dimensions? Scabbard style is certainly Sulu and also the wood does look typical. Is the carving work completely pure-bred Maranao for sure? Any chance this was crafted in a cultural/political melting pot (Zamboanga comes to mind)? Jose and Bangkaya, is the carving on the pommel really Maranao style? Regards, Kai