Philippine Insurrection Era Kriss ...or later??

Battara · 2nd January 2013, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

The kriss fits perfectly in the scabbard...definitely "born together".

Very good. More valuable that way and a good example of the evolution of these pieces.

VANDOO · 2nd January 2013, 04:37 AM

THE QUALITY OF THE WOOD USED TO MAKE THE SCABBARD IS USUALLY RESERVED FOR THE POMMEL ONLY AND IS NOT AN INEXPENSIVE WOOD AS USUALLY FOUNDIN SCABBARDS. IT APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN MADE WITH THE SAME WOOD AS THE POMMEL AND AT THE SAME TIME AND INTENDED FOR SHOW AND NEVER TO BE COVERED WITH A FIBER WRAP. THE BLADE IS LIKELY THE OLDEST AND THE TWO BACA BACA AND FERULLE AND PERHAPS THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD NEWER THAN THE BLADE.
IS THE FERRULE AND STRAPS SILVER, WHITE METAL OR ALUMINUM? IF NOT SILVER IT IS INCONSISTANT WITH THE CURRENT EXPENSIVE DRESS. JUST OBSERVATIONS FOR OTHERS MORE KNOWLEGABLE TO PONDER.

I DO LIKE IT VERY WELL DONE.

Bangkaya · 2nd January 2013, 05:45 AM

Interesting kris indeed! Looks like a Maranao kris in Sulu dress. This doesn't surprise me. If you have any of the early, old Kris Cutlery Sandata catalogs from the early 1990's when Cecil Quirino was bringing in old swords from Sulu, check out the kris section. There were several krises described as old Maranao blades in more recent Sulu dress. I'm not saying this is one of them, but that it is possible to find a blade from one of the Moro tribe in the dress of another. And really, you would never see a seki kura hilt that is original to a Maranao blade unless it was added on later.

As for the eagle, that is a puzzler. Have you considered that it might be a form of a garuda?

Regards,
Bangkaya

Dimasalang · 2nd January 2013, 11:51 AM

There actually was one General of Aguinldos 1st Republic I have seen and heard that carried what looked to be a Moro Kris. I have not found any information on this general at all. There were military representatives of the 1st Republic that traveled as far as Mindanao as well to establish and take over territory in association to the revolution and then the Phil-Am War. But typically these representatives were natives of Luzon and many times nobody followed or listened to them.
The Americans were smart in calling a temporary truce with the Moros, telling them their war was with the 'Tagals' of the North and not the Moros. The Bates Treaty was nothing but a delaying instrument so the Moros wouldn't get involved with the war at the time. God only knows what would of happen if the Moros joined in the fight against the American colonizers.
As for the eagle, I never came across a Katipunan or 1st Republic symbol with a eagle or bird. The only thing similar would be Aguinaldos sword w/ an eagles head, but he took possession of that sword from a Spanish General.

CharlesS · 2nd January 2013, 12:38 PM

Thanks again for the input....all very interesting stuff!

David · 2nd January 2013, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bangkaya

As for the eagle, that is a puzzler. Have you considered that it might be a form of a garuda?

It seems to me that all the elements exist (shield, 3 stars, stripes) in this eagle design to clearly connect it to the coat of arms for the Philippines commonwealth established from 1935-46. I think that dates the scabbard at least. I am not completely sure that the mark on the eagle's breast is necessarily the letter "M", though certainly possible.

CharlesS · 2nd January 2013, 04:51 PM

Thanks David,

I was so hoping that someone could come up with that insigna, and like you, I think that goes a long way towards answering the question.

Couple of things to note....

1. The scabbard style and hilt style certainly fit with that era.

2. Assuming the blade is born with it at the same time, would we have to rethink our assumptions about the time period of blades with separate gangas???

Rick · 2nd January 2013, 04:57 PM

Re your question, Charles :

Smiths in Indonesia still make keris today with separate gangjas .
So I would posit that it is not safe to assume that this feature uniformly died out at a certain date with the kris of the Moros .

CharlesS · 2nd January 2013, 05:16 PM

I couldn't agree more Rick, but it has been a generalised rule for dating Moro krisses...key term...generalized!

David · 3rd January 2013, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Assuming the blade is born with it at the same time, would we have to rethink our assumptions about the time period of blades with separate gangas???

Rather than being forced to rethink separate gangyas and time periods i think it is safer to assume that this sheath was simply made at a later date than the kris. If a sheath is made specifically for a blade it should be a perfect fit regardless of whether it was made at the same time or later than the blade. So i see no reason why we should make the assumption of the two being born at the same time in the first place.

kai · 3rd January 2013, 01:01 AM

Hello Charles,

Thanks for posting this - neat!

Can you please post a pic of the gangya area taken *exactly* from above? From what I can glean from the close-up I am somewhat tempted to believe this blade might be more likely Sulu than Maranao. I also don't think it is later than the turn of the (19th) century; quality does look quite decent, too (IMHO better than many 19th c. village kris). What are its dimensions?

Scabbard style is certainly Sulu and also the wood does look typical. Is the carving work completely pure-bred Maranao for sure? Any chance this was crafted in a cultural/political melting pot (Zamboanga comes to mind)?

Jose and Bangkaya, is the carving on the pommel really Maranao style?

Regards,
Kai

2nd January 2013, 11:51 AM	#4
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	There actually was one General of Aguinldos 1st Republic I have seen and heard that carried what looked to be a Moro Kris. I have not found any information on this general at all. There were military representatives of the 1st Republic that traveled as far as Mindanao as well to establish and take over territory in association to the revolution and then the Phil-Am War. But typically these representatives were natives of Luzon and many times nobody followed or listened to them. The Americans were smart in calling a temporary truce with the Moros, telling them their war was with the 'Tagals' of the North and not the Moros. The Bates Treaty was nothing but a delaying instrument so the Moros wouldn't get involved with the war at the time. God only knows what would of happen if the Moros joined in the fight against the American colonizers. As for the eagle, I never came across a Katipunan or 1st Republic symbol with a eagle or bird. The only thing similar would be Aguinaldos sword w/ an eagles head, but he took possession of that sword from a Spanish General. Last edited by Dimasalang; 2nd January 2013 at 12:06 PM.

2nd January 2013, 04:37 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE QUALITY OF THE WOOD USED TO MAKE THE SCABBARD IS USUALLY RESERVED FOR THE POMMEL ONLY AND IS NOT AN INEXPENSIVE WOOD AS USUALLY FOUNDIN SCABBARDS. IT APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN MADE WITH THE SAME WOOD AS THE POMMEL AND AT THE SAME TIME AND INTENDED FOR SHOW AND NEVER TO BE COVERED WITH A FIBER WRAP. THE BLADE IS LIKELY THE OLDEST AND THE TWO BACA BACA AND FERULLE AND PERHAPS THE HANDLE AND SCABBARD NEWER THAN THE BLADE. IS THE FERRULE AND STRAPS SILVER, WHITE METAL OR ALUMINUM? IF NOT SILVER IT IS INCONSISTANT WITH THE CURRENT EXPENSIVE DRESS. JUST OBSERVATIONS FOR OTHERS MORE KNOWLEGABLE TO PONDER. I DO LIKE IT VERY WELL DONE.

2nd January 2013, 05:45 AM	#3
Bangkaya Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 38	Interesting kris indeed! Looks like a Maranao kris in Sulu dress. This doesn't surprise me. If you have any of the early, old Kris Cutlery Sandata catalogs from the early 1990's when Cecil Quirino was bringing in old swords from Sulu, check out the kris section. There were several krises described as old Maranao blades in more recent Sulu dress. I'm not saying this is one of them, but that it is possible to find a blade from one of the Moro tribe in the dress of another. And really, you would never see a seki kura hilt that is original to a Maranao blade unless it was added on later. As for the eagle, that is a puzzler. Have you considered that it might be a form of a garuda? Regards, Bangkaya

2nd January 2013, 12:38 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks again for the input....all very interesting stuff!

2nd January 2013, 04:51 PM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Thanks David, I was so hoping that someone could come up with that insigna, and like you, I think that goes a long way towards answering the question. Couple of things to note.... 1. The scabbard style and hilt style certainly fit with that era. 2. Assuming the blade is born with it at the same time, would we have to rethink our assumptions about the time period of blades with separate gangas???

2nd January 2013, 04:57 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Re your question, Charles : Smiths in Indonesia still make keris today with separate gangjas . So I would posit that it is not safe to assume that this feature uniformly died out at a certain date with the kris of the Moros .

2nd January 2013, 05:16 PM	#9
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I couldn't agree more Rick, but it has been a generalised rule for dating Moro krisses...key term...generalized!

3rd January 2013, 01:01 AM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Charles, Thanks for posting this - neat! Can you please post a pic of the gangya area taken exactly from above? From what I can glean from the close-up I am somewhat tempted to believe this blade might be more likely Sulu than Maranao. I also don't think it is later than the turn of the (19th) century; quality does look quite decent, too (IMHO better than many 19th c. village kris). What are its dimensions? Scabbard style is certainly Sulu and also the wood does look typical. Is the carving work completely pure-bred Maranao for sure? Any chance this was crafted in a cultural/political melting pot (Zamboanga comes to mind)? Jose and Bangkaya, is the carving on the pommel really Maranao style? Regards, Kai