Bedouin Sword for Discussion

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Jim, and a Happy New Year.
I am not, as Teodor suggests disappointed, as I posted this for COMMENT, good or bad. As you have stated Jim, the term "Bedouin" is indeed used to cover a large area, and perhaps I should more correctly have used term "Arabian". As to the age, the scabbard at least is not new, and is much older than the one in the pic posted by Ibrahiim. I have no doubt that the hilt is a "backyard" piece, but the blade, which may be new or old, is certainly functional as a fighting piece. Even if this piece is from around the 1960s as you suggest, it is still approaching 60 years old now. Not a new made item as are being turned out to catch the unwary, and, I should add, at absolutely rediculous prices.
Stu

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well put Teodor, and I very much agree. I personally am not in favor of the 'fake' term despite the fact that there are certainly obvious cases that deserve that description, however sometimes it may be inadvertantly used. I think Ibrahiim does well in helping us become more aware of the variations and types of weapons offered in many of the circumstances he has experienced, and it is not easy to be explicit or candid in explaining these things without sounding harsh. Sometimes the poor standards present in commercial traffic in many examples can be frustrating, especially for those of us working to study the history of weapons forms, and that can sometimes creep into comments.

Actually these ringed hilts do appear to be Yemeni versions or at least seem believed to be from Zanzibar from around the 1960s from one I acquired and information from its source. Some earlier research notes these from Zanzibar (Cavalierre; Jacob) and Buttin considers the examples he shows (1933) as 17th-18th century, so the form seems quite old.Actually these rings were a feature seen on Italian sword forms from 16th century which influenced others as more complex guards developed.

While many of these, as noted, have substantial blades and likely were for actual use, it does seem that the more current markets are indeed producing examples more to satisfy souvenier demands (as seen by the examples Ibrahiim has posted with poorly defined fullers).

I think the Bedouin classification is pretty broadly used, and certainly could refer to any of the tribal groups over most of the Peninsula and other areas.
I have always felt that many of these weapons were intended for actual tribal wear/use but with the knowledge that they would be sold as required to tourists or others. Some with clearly inadequate blades would be the exception.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Stu, and happy new year to you as well,
I think this does look functional also, and it seems to me the goatskin and character of the scabbard would suggest it would be from some remote tribal use rather than made for sale in souks specifically. That is structly presumption on my part as I have never travelled to these places, and I am going mostly on information picked up through the years from others who have been in them.

As I mentioned I picked up one of these years ago which I was told had been among a good number of similar ones in Yemen, and that they had been used or for use during the civil war going on there in the 1960s. While it seems bizarre that swords would be still in use, it must be remembered that even then in remote regions, tribesmen still wore sabres. Many examples could certainly have been ersatz pieces cobbled together by less than skilled persons. This kind of fabrication has been seen in so many cases in times of strife, and these kinds of pieces are truly hard to identify and substantiate.
To me it seems that weapons made for tourist consumption and commercial stock would be a bit more consistant in the components and somewhat better assembled. On the other hand, as Ibrahiim notes, perhaps these industrious souk suppliers know this and deliberately fabricate random like composites.
The best proof is in the actual handling and the feel of the weapon. It is almost impossible to guage this factor from pictures.

All the best,
Jim

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Jim. I agree that the goatskin is unlikely to have been used in tourist pieces. The entire scabbard here is definitely OLD and not of modern making. The leather is very thin and brittle, and the goat skin is uncured (green) and shrunk on. It is VERY hard. I am prepared to accept that the hilt is likely more recent, but the blade could be old or more recent....hard to be sure but of good quality either way. There are no marks.
As far as this piece being a "user", the weight is "blade down" when held in the hand, and balance appears very good....not what I would have expected in a tourist piece.
Stu

[Atlantia]

Stu,

What's the blade like on yours? Is it sharp? What's the steel like?
The blade on Ibrahiims example looks completely flat with simple fullers, almost like a long machete blade.
Now that's not to say that the machete isn't a formidable weapon! Hell, it was probobly the most widely used 'sword' in Africa in the 20thC!
Although they are clearly the same type, Ibrahiims looks new and yours looks to have some age.

I have to say that as a tourist souvenir these would seem on the face of it to be somewhat impractical.
Often an item made to attract the eye of the traveller is 'pretty' on the outside with a blade that ranges from 'just usable' to completely unusable and purely decorative.
Your sword seems to flip this trend.
I can't see these being popular with todays travellers.
If they wanted a souvenir then surely the veritable flood of Jambiya, Khanjar and genuinely 'decorative' (and attractive) daggers that are being pushed by every street trader would be the obvious and preferred choice?

Just my thoughts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ALL ~ It appears that these blades arrive into Oman with hilts in this fashion bought as bulk purchase then sorted for either immediate sale to tourists or for re hilting on long Omani hilts as Kattara styles and then on for the souks tourists and all. The choice as to which blade get what treatment seems totally random.

As to how old they are is an interesting question as some appear new whilst others have been acid dropped and or buried...or both. It is extremely difficult to deduce the age on these blades. Knowing what is going on, however, helps the collector to make a qualified decision. In Oman there is real antiquity mixed unashamedly with stuff of dubious birth certification but thats part of the fun at the fair. Tourists on the other hand are very succeptible to being slightly taken in ....but nicely. Same the world over.

We took one Yemeni Nimcha apart recently in the workshop and one simple tap with the hammer disintegrated the entire hilt. On the other hand when the tang is extended and an Omani Long Hilt is applied with pommel the unit is strong. Alternatively the falcon head shaped (and often leather covered hilt) is substituted for the low grade Yemeni one retaining the quite useful blade. What is perhaps more to the point is that this shortish curved blade with an Omani Long Hilt is much more comfortable to wear simply stuffed under a sash or simple belt and worn in the badge of office role ...not as weapons... something I suspect may have also happened in the Bedouin sense since these variants with the flimsy made hilts would fall apart at the first contact... if, in fact, they ever saw service with Bedouin at all.

My theory is that in 1948 through 1952 the Jewish artesans largely vanished from Yemen and with their demise, in terms of effect upon the local quality of work, weapons of a lesser quality emerged. There are scores if not hundreds in Mutrah. Estimating the total weight of these weapons sold in Mutrah may extend into the THOUSANDS!!

[B]This is quite important actually since it is the solution, or part of it, to the supply of Kattara blades "of this nature" into Oman. However, if you ask me how many Omanis now buy these short curved swords/converted nimchas on Omani long hilts, irrespective of the age of the blades (and some are old~ 100, 150 years) I would have to say...none. I think the time has passed when Omani men carried this style of weapon and it has slipped away into history...though I still see the odd old gentleman wearing them and I have never seen an Omani with the rough Yemeni hilt...never.

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 #25 #47 #88 #154 #241(this is an Ethiopian ~German Blade which had a tang extension and pommel done) and #325 (first photo) where blades imported variously and many Yemeni poorly done hilts are reconstructed with Falcon Heads and Omani Longs ~ for the tourist market.

As a late added note to this post I should add that it is worth looking beyond the Yemen delivery date of these swords and in discovering that these blades many of which are quite bona fide steels often from Europe via Africa and a lot which were properly hilted found there way onto proper swords around the region. I assume that there are great stocks of these in storerooms in Sanaa but I have no evidence except in calculating the numbers pumped through Mutrah...and that is never easy. For sure items get the antique treatment and leather and hide are easy to confuse by burying while blades look 200 years older after the acid trick...In conclusion its always a good idea to look around to see whats being done and if the trend indicates there are lots of items like this being floated as original battle swords of the Bedouin you can bet they aren't. Then verbally having beaten the truth out of the seller that they may be Yemeni you just have to search a little deeper and ask yourself the question ...why are they here?


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[TribalBlades]

I personally believe there is no such thing as a Bedouin Sword (except the Omani / Yemeni Kattara and the Saif). Bedu hardly used Swords for warfare. It is mostly used for dancing. They almost always relied on Rifles and Guns. (except perhaps swords that date from before the arrival of the british and other colonizing forces).

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by TribalBlades

I personally believe there is no such thing as a Bedouin Sword (except the Omani / Yemeni Kattara and the Saif). Bedu hardly used Swords for warfare. They almost always relied on Rifles and Guns. (except perhaps swords that date from before the arrival of the british and other colonizing forces).

aaaand thats wrong :-) the saif is well used by bedouin communities (well not as much as spears..) but they are there and there are particular styles but one thing noticed is that they rarely make any blades and most of the fittings are actually done in cities. This has to do with the bedouin tradition and mentality which looks upon physical work as some sort of insult.

As for the sword with Stu. I originally owned this one and there are honest sign of wear on the fittings of the blade. Things that are very difficult (and pointless to make) to do so it doesnt seem right that these were made to sell to tourists. The blade is nice, thick and I remember it was sharpened. The blade was thicker then any of my wootz shamshirs and was alittle less thick then a European blade on a nimcha (which I sold along with this one) so its a serious blade and the mounts were holding strong on it. The wood of the scabbard had signs of wear near the throat so is the leather there. as you can see, the bronze (?) lines on the top of the scabbard have losses that are done due to loss with time I doubt people selling to tourist will have so much interest in details or a need to actually do such damage.

Stuff made for tourists generally contain lots of 'flash' and go for the cheapest and quickest material available and rarely have signs of wear. Keep in mind that the said Yemenis who supposedly produce these are also producing the jambiyas we see in the tourist market, how many do you see which are deliberately made to look older? rarely if ever done purposefully.

Ibrahim is correct on one thing which I ignored as a variation before, while I find some of these with the one similar to Stu's I also find ones with slim blades and scabbards that look very new. One of the interesting things about those is that they are often precieved as ugly and rarely ever sell to anyone so am not sure how they classify as tourist items.

included are photos of the saif pre restoration.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TribalBlades

I personally believe there is no such thing as a Bedouin Sword (except the Omani / Yemeni Kattara and the Saif). Bedu hardly used Swords for warfare. It is mostly used for dancing. They almost always relied on Rifles and Guns. (except perhaps swords that date from before the arrival of the british and other colonizing forces).

Salaams Tribal Blades.. Im afraid thats not the case ~ I understand the sentiment since you must have seen the state of what the Bedouin are now like with 4 wheel drives galore and seemingly not much antiquity left at all...but they did carry swords and they used them on occasions on raids and fights. No doubt they were also a badge of office too...as as you say for pageants, weddings and dancing.. but as you intimate swords fell out of fashion as rifles fell in. I have a record of sword battles circa 1900 in the what is now UAE... and there are lots of pictures of Bedouin with swords.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.