Bedouin Sword for Discussion

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Perhaps if these are as common as you say, you could provide some pics of them actually in the Souks.
This is NOT a tourist piece, unlike some of the Replicas/Rebuilds coming out of Oman. This piece is too old and very functional.

Yes of course in a few minutes... the souks are awash with them...on the other hand I wouldnt want to make a presentation which could be misconstrued as commercially biased since that could hurt the sensibilities of certain individuals... not that I would do that..of course. That is not to discourage people going to the souk... its great fun and full of weird stuff; some real, some not. I find it irresistable and reccommend it to all visitors.

Anyway these fakes...they sometimes have a good blade.. its just pot luck...

Its just what sells..The tourists scoop them up all over the place. I can show scores of them all stacked up in the souk in Mutrah and I know theres a load in Sharjah they haul in box loads from India and Yemen. I saw bundles of Tulwar in Sharjah the other day...same situation with those...they look alright but they aren't. Theres a complete back street industry been knocking these out for tourists for donkeys years in Sanaa and India etc.

Im just off to Buraimi Souk theres some over there. I know the shop owner ... I will ask him where he gets them. He is Yemeni... so I guess... Sanaa? Thats where Muscat gets their bulk of junk. There aren't (well maybe about 3 a month) any tourists in Yemen so swords are pouring out ~exporting to surrounding souks. I just rang up the Muscat boys and when they could stop laughing they said its just "bread and butter"...they sell loads of them... they are in the right price range to be carted off by tourists off cruise ships who often dont even ask if they are genuine..

I imagine they also exist in just about every souk from here to Morocco, Egypt, Yemen UAE and in India etc... serious buyers beware. The proper Nimchas are a cut above these.

I shall include later an article in the "Souks of Oman" thread on how to spot fakes.

They are souvenirs for tourists.


Photo.
( See below Yemeni sword put up for tourists to buy...typefied by a not bad looking blade(new) Picture taken by me tonight at about 9pm. 31 Dec 2012. Buraimi Souk. According to the store owner who is Yemeni ~Hilt knocked up in a backyard workshop in Sanaa, Scabbard made to order..same souk. Same applies to Mutrah and other souks in that traders in this case from the Habaabi region in Saudia adjacent Yemen and offloaded this. Apparently these weapons can be further aged by being dropped in car battery acid and then buried in the ground. The same can be done to scabbards..Looks like it came out of a similar workshop to the project sword at #1.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

You seem to have a good knowledge of fakes, but then I suppose that is to be expected.
Anyway its "each to their own", and if you want to call this item a fake, then go ahead.
At least there is some "politeness" used in describing other fakes posted on this Forum.......

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Yes of course in a few minutes... the souks are awash with them...on the other hand I wouldnt want to make a presentation which could be misconstrued as commercially biased since that could hurt the sensibilities of certain individuals... not that I would do that..of course. That is not to discourage people going to the souk... its great fun and full of weird stuff; some real, some not. I find it irresistable and reccommend it to all visitors.

Anyway these fakes...they sometimes have a good blade.. its just pot luck...

Its just what sells..The tourists scoop them up all over the place. I can show scores of them all stacked up in the souk in Mutrah and I know theres a load in Sharjah they haul in box loads from India and Yemen. I saw bundles of Tulwar in Sharjah the other day...same situation with those...they look alright but they aren't. Theres a complete back street industry been knocking these out for tourists for donkeys years in Sanaa and India etc.

Im just off to Buraimi Souk theres some over there. I know the shop owner ... I will ask him where he gets them. He is Yemeni... so I guess... Sanaa? Thats where Muscat gets their bulk of junk. There aren't (well maybe about 3 a month) any tourists in Yemen so swords are pouring out ~exporting to surrounding souks. I just rang up the Muscat boys and when they could stop laughing they said its just "bread and butter"...they sell loads of them... they are in the right price range to be carted off by tourists off cruise ships who often dont even ask if they are genuine..

I imagine they also exist in just about every souk from here to Morocco, Egypt, Yemen UAE and in India etc... serious buyers beware. The proper Nimchas are a cut above these.

I shall include later an article in the "Souks of Oman" thread on how to spot fakes.

They are souvenirs for tourists.


Photo.
( See below Yemeni sword put up for tourists to buy...typefied by a not bad looking blade(new) Picture taken by me tonight at about 9pm. 31 Dec 2012. Buraimi Souk. According to the store owner who is Yemeni ~Hilt knocked up in a backyard workshop in Sanaa, Scabbard made to order..same souk. Same applies to Mutrah and other souks in that traders in this case from the Habaabi region in Saudia adjacent Yemen and offloaded this. Apparently these weapons can be further aged by being dropped in car battery acid and then buried in the ground. The same can be done to scabbards..Looks like it came out of a similar workshop to the project sword at #1.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[TVV]

I understand and share your disappointment, but ultimately find it better to accept the facts. And in the case of these swords with varying blades and crude hilts imitating the hilts of seifs from Zanzibar, the facts point to a modern production, likely coming from Yemen and not intended for battle, but for the souvenir trade.

If it is of any consolation, I am the (not so) proud owner of one of these, except it is in much worse shape than yours:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8997

You can see some more examples in this old thread about the souks in Riyadh:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3974

I am not sure that I would go as far as to label these swords "fakes", since the word "fake" implies an intent to deceive, and these are so crude that it seems unlikely that anyone is really trying to pass them off as authentic 19th century examples. These swords seem to be produced to satisfy a certain demand, rather than to deceive collectors like you and me: we just happened to make a mistake due to insufficient knowledge of the local souks. The blade on yours looks quite nice and is probably antique. It may have even been used within the culture in a different dress before.

I also do not feel that Ibrahim's post's intent was to offend: as someone who has the benefit of exposure to all the modern sword production in the area, he is uniquely qialified to educate us on it. I may not agree with him on absolutely everything, but I appreciate his local perspective and the knowledge he brings, and in this case, I feel that unfortunately he is correct.

Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Very well put Teodor, and I very much agree. I personally am not in favor of the 'fake' term despite the fact that there are certainly obvious cases that deserve that description, however sometimes it may be inadvertantly used. I think Ibrahiim does well in helping us become more aware of the variations and types of weapons offered in many of the circumstances he has experienced, and it is not easy to be explicit or candid in explaining these things without sounding harsh. Sometimes the poor standards present in commercial traffic in many examples can be frustrating, especially for those of us working to study the history of weapons forms, and that can sometimes creep into comments.

Actually these ringed hilts do appear to be Yemeni versions or at least seem believed to be from Zanzibar from around the 1960s from one I acquired and information from its source. Some earlier research notes these from Zanzibar (Cavalierre; Jacob) and Buttin considers the examples he shows (1933) as 17th-18th century, so the form seems quite old.Actually these rings were a feature seen on Italian sword forms from 16th century which influenced others as more complex guards developed.

While many of these, as noted, have substantial blades and likely were for actual use, it does seem that the more current markets are indeed producing examples more to satisfy souvenier demands (as seen by the examples Ibrahiim has posted with poorly defined fullers).

I think the Bedouin classification is pretty broadly used, and certainly could refer to any of the tribal groups over most of the Peninsula and other areas.
I have always felt that many of these weapons were intended for actual tribal wear/use but with the knowledge that they would be sold as required to tourists or others. Some with clearly inadequate blades would be the exception.

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Jim, and a Happy New Year.
I am not, as Teodor suggests disappointed, as I posted this for COMMENT, good or bad. As you have stated Jim, the term "Bedouin" is indeed used to cover a large area, and perhaps I should more correctly have used term "Arabian". As to the age, the scabbard at least is not new, and is much older than the one in the pic posted by Ibrahiim. I have no doubt that the hilt is a "backyard" piece, but the blade, which may be new or old, is certainly functional as a fighting piece. Even if this piece is from around the 1960s as you suggest, it is still approaching 60 years old now. Not a new made item as are being turned out to catch the unwary, and, I should add, at absolutely rediculous prices.
Stu

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Very well put Teodor, and I very much agree. I personally am not in favor of the 'fake' term despite the fact that there are certainly obvious cases that deserve that description, however sometimes it may be inadvertantly used. I think Ibrahiim does well in helping us become more aware of the variations and types of weapons offered in many of the circumstances he has experienced, and it is not easy to be explicit or candid in explaining these things without sounding harsh. Sometimes the poor standards present in commercial traffic in many examples can be frustrating, especially for those of us working to study the history of weapons forms, and that can sometimes creep into comments.

Actually these ringed hilts do appear to be Yemeni versions or at least seem believed to be from Zanzibar from around the 1960s from one I acquired and information from its source. Some earlier research notes these from Zanzibar (Cavalierre; Jacob) and Buttin considers the examples he shows (1933) as 17th-18th century, so the form seems quite old.Actually these rings were a feature seen on Italian sword forms from 16th century which influenced others as more complex guards developed.

While many of these, as noted, have substantial blades and likely were for actual use, it does seem that the more current markets are indeed producing examples more to satisfy souvenier demands (as seen by the examples Ibrahiim has posted with poorly defined fullers).

I think the Bedouin classification is pretty broadly used, and certainly could refer to any of the tribal groups over most of the Peninsula and other areas.
I have always felt that many of these weapons were intended for actual tribal wear/use but with the knowledge that they would be sold as required to tourists or others. Some with clearly inadequate blades would be the exception.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Stu, and happy new year to you as well,
I think this does look functional also, and it seems to me the goatskin and character of the scabbard would suggest it would be from some remote tribal use rather than made for sale in souks specifically. That is structly presumption on my part as I have never travelled to these places, and I am going mostly on information picked up through the years from others who have been in them.

As I mentioned I picked up one of these years ago which I was told had been among a good number of similar ones in Yemen, and that they had been used or for use during the civil war going on there in the 1960s. While it seems bizarre that swords would be still in use, it must be remembered that even then in remote regions, tribesmen still wore sabres. Many examples could certainly have been ersatz pieces cobbled together by less than skilled persons. This kind of fabrication has been seen in so many cases in times of strife, and these kinds of pieces are truly hard to identify and substantiate.
To me it seems that weapons made for tourist consumption and commercial stock would be a bit more consistant in the components and somewhat better assembled. On the other hand, as Ibrahiim notes, perhaps these industrious souk suppliers know this and deliberately fabricate random like composites.
The best proof is in the actual handling and the feel of the weapon. It is almost impossible to guage this factor from pictures.

All the best,
Jim

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Jim. I agree that the goatskin is unlikely to have been used in tourist pieces. The entire scabbard here is definitely OLD and not of modern making. The leather is very thin and brittle, and the goat skin is uncured (green) and shrunk on. It is VERY hard. I am prepared to accept that the hilt is likely more recent, but the blade could be old or more recent....hard to be sure but of good quality either way. There are no marks.
As far as this piece being a "user", the weight is "blade down" when held in the hand, and balance appears very good....not what I would have expected in a tourist piece.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

I understand and share your disappointment, but ultimately find it better to accept the facts. And in the case of these swords with varying blades and crude hilts imitating the hilts of seifs from Zanzibar, the facts point to a modern production, likely coming from Yemen and not intended for battle, but for the souvenir trade.

If it is of any consolation, I am the (not so) proud owner of one of these, except it is in much worse shape than yours:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8997

You can see some more examples in this old thread about the souks in Riyadh:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3974

I am not sure that I would go as far as to label these swords "fakes", since the word "fake" implies an intent to deceive, and these are so crude that it seems unlikely that anyone is really trying to pass them off as authentic 19th century examples. These swords seem to be produced to satisfy a certain demand, rather than to deceive collectors like you and me: we just happened to make a mistake due to insufficient knowledge of the local souks. The blade on yours looks quite nice and is probably antique. It may have even been used within the culture in a different dress before.

I also do not feel that Ibrahim's post's intent was to offend: as someone who has the benefit of exposure to all the modern sword production in the area, he is uniquely qialified to educate us on it. I may not agree with him on absolutely everything, but I appreciate his local perspective and the knowledge he brings, and in this case, I feel that unfortunately he is correct.

Regards,
Teodor

Salaams TVV...Your curved sword looks like a "Luckhouse and Gunter" imported German blade for the Ethiopian market configured typically with two full length florally decorated fullers and throat stamps etc. Could well have simply slipped onto the bulk blades market and re hilted for the souks; Saudia or Yemen.

With an Ethiopian hilt it would be superb...and correct.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Since the original subject of this thread has now well and truely been hijacked, and we now appear to be discussing an entirely different subject I might as well "join the party".
If one bothers to PROPERLY read the linked thread about the Ethiopian bladed Saif, it clearly states that the blade is marked with the letters M K.
A little research reveals that these stand for M.KEVORKOFF & CO who were importers based in Harrar, Ethiopia. Absolutely nothing to do with Luckhouse & Gunter...... (actual spelling is LUCKHAUS & GUNTHER)
Blades for Ethiopia were made in their thousands by Solingen makers but also Wilkinson of London and exported unmounted.
It is reasonable to assume that many of these found their way into the hands of various Tribes and were mounted by them in their own style.
The idea that these were rehilted for the Souks is ridiculous, as anyone with a small amount of knowledge of the history of Arabia will know that at the time these were imported, the then Colonial Powers were all vying for allegence from the various Arab Tribes, and there was continual fighting going on.
In fact Saudia did not even exist at that time, only coming into existance in the 1930s, and it was not until after WW 2 that Arabia was "opened up" and the first "tourists" started to arrive in any numbers.
So lets try to be a little realistic and accept that not every "different" sword was intended for the Souks!!

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams TVV...Your curved sword looks like a "Luckhouse and Gunter" imported German blade for the Ethiopian market configured typically with two full length florally decorated fullers and throat stamps etc. Could well have simply slipped onto the bulk blades market and re hilted for the souks; Saudia or Yemen.

With an Ethiopian hilt it would be superb...and correct.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Since the original subject of this thread has now well and truely been hijacked, and we now appear to be discussing an entirely different subject I might as well "join the party".
If one bothers to PROPERLY read the linked thread about the Ethiopian bladed Saif, it clearly states that the blade is marked with the letters M K.
A little research reveals that these stand for M.KEVORKOFF & CO who were importers based in Harrar, Ethiopia. Absolutely nothing to do with Luckhouse & Gunter...... (actual spelling is LUCKHAUS & GUNTHER)
Blades for Ethiopia were made in their thousands by Solingen makers but also Wilkinson of London and exported unmounted.
It is reasonable to assume that many of these found their way into the hands of various Tribes and were mounted by them in their own style.
The idea that these were rehilted for the Souks is ridiculous, as anyone with a small amount of knowledge of the history of Arabia will know that at the time these were imported, the then Colonial Powers were all vying for allegence from the various Arab Tribes, and there was continual fighting going on.
In fact Saudia did not even exist at that time, only coming into existance in the 1930s, and it was not until after WW 2 that Arabia was "opened up" and the first "tourists" started to arrive in any numbers.
So lets try to be a little realistic and accept that not every "different" sword was intended for the Souks!!

Salaams ...Not quite...I believe MK were the importers of such blades and the insignia denotes where the blade was made ie Luckhause and Gunther factory..Anyway the fact is that those blades are acceptable in Ethiopia.
Of the rest you are probably confused but my advice is to observe firstly the most updated information on Swords and Omani Artefacts which is from the Richardson and Dorr manual ... the classic chapter and verse on Omani antiquity. You are miles out on your guestimate about these Yemani swords as they are pure slight of hand straight down the line tourist items which is a pity as the majority of blades arent at all bad. You should therefor envisage what blades are acceptable in which countries on which hilts...Tourism in Oman was non existant in Oman before 1970. In Oman there is no way these Yemeni/Saudia knock ups are acceptable...eccept as I say as tourist items. I cant be fairer than that.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

What??? You obviously need to carefully re read what I said. No mention was made of Oman or Omani artifacts, but the comments were related to your assumption that most blades which are not mounted to the custom of a particular country, are no more than traps for the tourist.. My point is that until very recent times (your statement of 1970 is about right) tourism as we now know it did not exist in Arabia, so why would swords be "manufactured" to fool non existant tourists?

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams ...Not quite...I believe MK were the importers of such blades and the insignia denotes where the blade was made ie Luckhause and Gunther factory..Anyway the fact is that those blades are acceptable in Ethiopia.
Of the rest you are probably confused but my advice is to observe firstly the most updated information on Swords and Omani Artefacts which is from the Richardson and Dorr manual ... the classic chapter and verse on Omani antiquity. You are miles out on your guestimate about these Yemani swords as they are pure slight of hand straight down the line tourist items which is a pity as the majority of blades arent at all bad. You should therefor envisage what blades are acceptable in which countries on which hilts...Tourism in Oman was non existant in Oman before 1970. In Oman there is no way these Yemeni/Saudia knock ups are acceptable...eccept as I say as tourist items. I cant be fairer than that.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

I have read{But sadley cant recall the source} that many Ethiopean swords were imported into Yemen 2 or 3 decades ago to turn the rhino horn sword hilts into Jambiya Handles.

Id guess this could be a factor.

Spiral

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams TVV...Your curved sword looks like a "Luckhouse and Gunter" imported German blade for the Ethiopian market configured typically with two full length florally decorated fullers and throat stamps etc. Could well have simply slipped onto the bulk blades market and re hilted for the souks; Saudia or Yemen.

With an Ethiopian hilt it would be superb...and correct.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahim,

I am assuming the blade made its way to Yemen because of its former hilt, which was likely rhino and was reused for a jambiya: there have been other examples on the forum of rehilted Ethiopian blades. However, there is one thing that I find somewhat puzzling: the blade was originally straight, and was reforged into a curved one. Logically, it could have been rehilted with its new hilt for the souvenir trade just as it was, so why go through the extra effort of hammering it into a curved one? I can imagine that labor is cheap, but it seems like a totally unnecessary step.

Anyway, for more ethipoian swords rehilted in Yemen, I found this thread. The pictures are now sadly gone, but the hilts were of a different kind, not of the ring hilt variety:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001511.html

The thread about the Riyadh bazaars, which I refernced earlier, suggested that the swords in the bazaar were not entirely intended for tourists, but that there was still a local demand for ceremonial and status purposes. While a lot of the production is undoubtedly meant for tourists, we should probably be careful before we quickly dismiss every sword with a modern (1950+) rehilt as a souvenir.

Regards,
Teodor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

Ibrahim,

I am assuming the blade made its way to Yemen because of its former hilt, which was likely rhino and was reused for a jambiya: there have been other examples on the forum of rehilted Ethiopian blades. However, there is one thing that I find somewhat puzzling: the blade was originally straight, and was reforged into a curved one. Logically, it could have been rehilted with its new hilt for the souvenir trade just as it was, so why go through the extra effort of hammering it into a curved one? I can imagine that labor is cheap, but it seems like a totally unnecessary step.

Anyway, for more ethipoian swords rehilted in Yemen, I found this thread. The pictures are now sadly gone, but the hilts were of a different kind, not of the ring hilt variety:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001511.html

The thread about the Riyadh bazaars, which I refernced earlier, suggested that the swords in the bazaar were not entirely intended for tourists, but that there was still a local demand for ceremonial and status purposes. While a lot of the production is undoubtedly meant for tourists, we should probably be careful before we quickly dismiss every sword with a modern (1950+) rehilt as a souvenir.

Regards,
Teodor

Salaams TVV, Yes that was interesting and I wonder what the story was on the curved (straight) Ethiopian/ German blade?

As to the question of how many swords there are in Riyad souk destined for tourists and how many for other users; I have no idea but I do know how the split goes in Muscat ... in terms of the imported blades at project #1 and the like~ all go to tourists.... except where a collector may step in and seeing a good blade may correctly rehilt. I can say that none of these out of area blades with crude hilts have been taken by Omani people to be some sort of weapon or as some kind of hoinorific tool or sword of dance...never!

In the case of short Nimcha blades being suited together on long Omani hilts these also hit the tourists shelves hard since they are quite appealing and almost squeeze through as genuine ... but hopefully this is now fully understood and at least forum are aware of the facts.

I mean anyone or should I say any collector who goes to the souk knowing that these are knocked up hilts aimed at the tourist market is advised to beware. Unless, of course, they were able to apply a correctly researched hilt.

My records go back to 1970 and are tied by the fact that in Muscat the main workshop/souk shop combination is owned by people with the same tribal name.

They say that with tourism no matter what, in the end, the client will buy what they like.... which is understandable when you consider that a 4,000 person cruise ship on a 2 day stop over parked 500 yards from the main Mutrah Souk entrance doesn't have time to educate its client base on all the pitfalls of the souk ...

They just pump them through 30 at a time in small hordes of frenzied bargain snatchers." 'Ere Mildred look at this" ... "It says 'ere Chinese sword made from Meteorite 10,000,000 year old" ... "Ooh is it signed" ... ? "Can I pay by cash"? ... "Do I have to bargain"...?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[DaveA]

Thank you Ibrahiim al Balooshi. I know your time is valuable so I am thankful every time you post your well documented wisdom on this forum.

With so many artificially-aged items in the market to beguile the innocent novice collector, may I suggest to the moderators that it may be time to create or update a sticky thread with information such as Ibrahiim has posted?

I dearly hope the following says something like 'Happy New Year"!

سنة جديدة سعيدة


Best regards,

David