A firangi blade or??

Rick · 25th September 2005, 09:41 PM

Oh , so they're stamped in marks !
They appear to be just the opposite .
Surely fooled my eye .

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2005, 03:58 PM

Hi Jens,
These 'firangi' blades seem to have typically been Solingen products, although there were certainly some variants. It seems that although the term 'firangi' is generally considered to be loosely translated as 'foreign', I have read that more specifically it meant 'Portuguese'. This alluded to the Portuguese trade location at Goa on the west coast of India, which was key to the trade with the west.

During the 18th century, which this blade appears by the familiar multiple fullering and the markings, Solingen was producing trade blades for many countries including Spain by this time, and it is not at all uncommon to see the names of famed Spanish makers of earlier times stamped on these blades (although the spellings and syntax of phrases widely varied). The use of the 'x's was also characteristic of these blades from Solingen, and they were placed simply as accents or puncuation in the stamped names or wording, and it seems that they always occurred in groupings of two or three.

The Mahrattas, who of course favored the thrusting khandas, also favored these straight 18th century blades commonly used in Europe by dragoons, and these did indeed have ricassos. It would seem that the trade in this Portuguese station in India accounted for considerable arrival of these trade blades in the 18th century, and I doubt native production of blades would have been worthwhile. I am not certain about subsequent native production of blades in regions where the khanda diffused, but it does not seem that native versions of blades would have carried copies of the markings if there were. Actually I think that most khandas are 'firangi' in terms of the blades

and I think most of these we see in collections are 18th century furbishings.
How 'bout a picture of the sword?
All the best,
Jim

Rick, I agree , at first those letters sure did look 'bubbled up' !!

and I thought we were goin' straight to Rajasthan!!!

-Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 26th September 2005, 04:50 PM

Hi Jim,
If you insist I will show the whole thing, but this is the most interesting. Have a look at the cheetahs (?), and have a look at the two elephants coming out from behind the cheetahs hind legs – the cheetahs are made in silver by the way. I am not sure if you can se it, but the cheetahs wear a collar of gold.
BTW does anyone recognise the mark?

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2005, 05:27 PM

WOW! Thatsa some firangi Jens!!!

As always, incredible examples you show. What is the 'mark' you're referring to? Is the floral motif the lotus?
Thank you for posting the picture, its a beauty.
All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 26th September 2005, 07:45 PM

Hi Jim, the mark I refer to is the mark on the blade - the stamp. Now that we are at it, how come that these stamps are mostly made twice, one under each other - and that it is so, that on the first mark you mostly see the first half of it, and on the scond mark, the last half of it?

Battara · 26th September 2005, 08:31 PM

Crap....drooled on the keyboard again.

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2005, 02:12 AM

Battara, me too!!! Think we're gonna have a bunch of shorted out keyboards!!!

Jens,
That is most likely a Solingen trade blade, as they were typically using Spanish names and mottos at this time in the 18th century. It would be difficult to assign to a particular maker unless there was a key marking separate on the blade somewhere, but most of the time they only carried these spurious inscriptions. These blades seem to date from Solingen from latter 17th to early 18th century, and the Spanish name thing seems to account for a lot of the blades found on Scottish swords of this period too.
Even if we can match the name it is unlikely going to be that of the maker of the blade unfortunately.

This sword is incredible....centerfold material!!!

All the best,
Jim

26th September 2005, 04:50 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, If you insist I will show the whole thing, but this is the most interesting. Have a look at the cheetahs (?), and have a look at the two elephants coming out from behind the cheetahs hind legs – the cheetahs are made in silver by the way. I am not sure if you can se it, but the cheetahs wear a collar of gold. BTW does anyone recognise the mark? Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 26th September 2005 at 05:08 PM.

25th September 2005, 09:41 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Oh , so they're stamped in marks ! They appear to be just the opposite . Surely fooled my eye .

26th September 2005, 03:58 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Jens, These 'firangi' blades seem to have typically been Solingen products, although there were certainly some variants. It seems that although the term 'firangi' is generally considered to be loosely translated as 'foreign', I have read that more specifically it meant 'Portuguese'. This alluded to the Portuguese trade location at Goa on the west coast of India, which was key to the trade with the west. During the 18th century, which this blade appears by the familiar multiple fullering and the markings, Solingen was producing trade blades for many countries including Spain by this time, and it is not at all uncommon to see the names of famed Spanish makers of earlier times stamped on these blades (although the spellings and syntax of phrases widely varied). The use of the 'x's was also characteristic of these blades from Solingen, and they were placed simply as accents or puncuation in the stamped names or wording, and it seems that they always occurred in groupings of two or three. The Mahrattas, who of course favored the thrusting khandas, also favored these straight 18th century blades commonly used in Europe by dragoons, and these did indeed have ricassos. It would seem that the trade in this Portuguese station in India accounted for considerable arrival of these trade blades in the 18th century, and I doubt native production of blades would have been worthwhile. I am not certain about subsequent native production of blades in regions where the khanda diffused, but it does not seem that native versions of blades would have carried copies of the markings if there were. Actually I think that most khandas are 'firangi' in terms of the blades and I think most of these we see in collections are 18th century furbishings. How 'bout a picture of the sword? All the best, Jim Rick, I agree , at first those letters sure did look 'bubbled up' !! and I thought we were goin' straight to Rajasthan!!! -Jim

26th September 2005, 05:27 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	WOW! Thatsa some firangi Jens!!! As always, incredible examples you show. What is the 'mark' you're referring to? Is the floral motif the lotus? Thank you for posting the picture, its a beauty. All the best, Jim

26th September 2005, 07:45 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, the mark I refer to is the mark on the blade - the stamp. Now that we are at it, how come that these stamps are mostly made twice, one under each other - and that it is so, that on the first mark you mostly see the first half of it, and on the scond mark, the last half of it?

26th September 2005, 08:31 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Crap....drooled on the keyboard again.

27th September 2005, 02:12 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Battara, me too!!! Think we're gonna have a bunch of shorted out keyboards!!! Jens, That is most likely a Solingen trade blade, as they were typically using Spanish names and mottos at this time in the 18th century. It would be difficult to assign to a particular maker unless there was a key marking separate on the blade somewhere, but most of the time they only carried these spurious inscriptions. These blades seem to date from Solingen from latter 17th to early 18th century, and the Spanish name thing seems to account for a lot of the blades found on Scottish swords of this period too. Even if we can match the name it is unlikely going to be that of the maker of the blade unfortunately. This sword is incredible....centerfold material!!! All the best, Jim