Unusual ? Moro kris

[Sajen]

With some restore work, the plates need to added as well the baca baca and the handle seem not original anymore. When this would be done it will be a very nice kris and also rare IMHO.

I think the blade is from Sulu. Age I would guess second half of the 19th century but there are members who will know it better.

Detlef

[ariel]

With all the changes, what would be left of it?

[Rick]

I think you were wise to avoid battle over this kris, Ariel .
Fully restored (probably a lot of dollars later) you would have yourself something not quite authentic in others' eyes, I think .

I would also estimate the age of this piece a bit earlier than late 19th .

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ariel

With all the changes, what would be left of it?

It would come to status how it have looked originally. But's your choice, you can keep it in this status as well.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

It would come to status how it have looked originally. But's your choice, you can keep it in this status as well.

Regards,

Detlef

I am afraid one can only guess how this blade looked originally. There is "restoration" and then there is "re-creation". I am not usually in favor of the latter and would have little interest in such a blade afterwards if it came on the market again. That is, if i knew of the changes. What is most disturbing to me is that if these re-creation jobs are done exceedingly well they become a bit of a modern forgery. Perhaps the next owner will be informed of the upgrade. Perhaps not. Eventually it may be impossible to tell one way or another. That is unfair to the next generation of collectors. We all want perfect and pristine pieces, but often enough that is just not possible. I would suggest that we all think very carefully before we embark on a project that radically changes the present physical character of our collected blade, especially when those changes can be little more than educated guess of what the original blade actually looked like.
That said i do believe that Spunger's post shows a good guess of what probably occupied the holes in this blade. I'm fairly sure this was always a kris.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

I am afraid one can only guess how this blade looked originally. There is "restoration" and then there is "re-creation". I am not usually in favor of the latter and would have little interest in such a blade afterwards if it came on the market again. That is, if i knew of the changes. What is most disturbing to me is that if these re-creation jobs are done exceedingly well they become a bit of a modern forgery. Perhaps the next owner will be informed of the upgrade. Perhaps not. Eventually it may be impossible to tell one way or another. That is unfair to the next generation of collectors. We all want perfect and pristine pieces, but often enough that is just not possible. I would suggest that we all think very carefully before we embark on a project that radically changes the present physical character of our collected blade, especially when those changes can be little more than educated guess of what the original blade actually looked like.
That said i do believe that Spunger's post shows a good guess of what probably occupied the holes in this blade. I'm fairly sure this was always a kris.

Agree with you, it's every time a narrow path you walk by restoration. I am many many times unsure byself if something should be done or not. See for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16260
Jose have given back many kris their baca-baca/asang-asang, many kris I have seen here at this place has get partly restore jobs at the handles, recently for example: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16562 or a new wrapping. Nobody from us know how they have looked originally.
The kris/kalis in question has a well preserved scabbard but the kris byself is a relict, the handle isn't original or not in it's original state anymore, the asang-asang is missing, the plates which was attached are missing as well and the blade was heavily scrubbed with sandpaper.

There will be every time different opinions what should be done but I agree again with you when there will be done a great restore to this kris it should be documented and by a possible reselling told.

By my kris (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16260) I am not really happy with the result but I think there was no other possibility to keep the scabbard.

Here is a thread from a restore Jose have done once, a kris which was a more bad relict as the one from Ariel, worth in monetary value as well in historic value nearly nothing: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kalis
Should it have been done or not? I personally think sometimes it's easy to decide and sometimes difficult.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Frankly Detlef, i think you did a great job with your restoration. First of all, we all know that sheaths will often be changed in the lifetime of a blade. So if one can restore the old sheath like you did or even create a brand new one from scratch as Jose did in the link you provide i see no real problem with that. It is just respectful to the blade to provide it with a good home.
My concern arises when we consider making physical changes to the blade such as with Ariel's example. Adding a new plate onto the blade requires a great deal of guess work and pretty much changes the blade forever.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

Frankly Detlef, i think you did a great job with your restoration. First of all, we all know that sheaths will often be changed in the lifetime of a blade. So if one can restore the old sheath like you did or even create a brand new one from scratch as Jose did in the link you provide i see no real problem with that. It is just respectful to the blade to provide it with a good home.
My concern arises when we consider making physical changes to the blade such as with Ariel's example. Adding a new plate onto the blade requires a great deal of guess work and pretty much changes the blade forever.

First, thank you! Jose has given this kris not only a new sheath but also new silver bands to the handle and new clamps.
Possible new plates could be plain and would be attached by rivets, easily removable when wished. By one picture Ariel provide I think you still can see how long they have been and which form they have had.

But like I have written before, there never will be an unanimous point of view and it will be a norrow path to do such a restore or not. Some will decide to do it, others not. But I think we have agreement by the handle and the clamp.

Regards,

Detlef