an archaic Kalis

Rick · 24th December 2012, 01:50 AM

Perhaps we need to look at the direction of the spread of the Malay peoples (keris bearing cultures) throughout the Philippine Archipelago ?

Somewhere in my readings I had gotten the impression that it began in the far South .

That area is closest to Borneo, is it not ?

Spunjer · 24th December 2012, 04:58 AM

thanks for everyone's response so far...

i'm posting a provenanced "archaic" kris that was purchased in Mindanao around december of 1899. the question would be, was this piece old (as in over a century old) when it was purchased? or was it purchased new? notice the how the black inlay is perfectly intact. btw, as a side note, there were other weapons that was purchased with this particular kris, including a huge Junggayan kalis and a gasah. i believe on one of the tags, it was stated that it was purchased in a marketplace. please understand though, that the officer that bought these weapons was one of the first americans that was sent by the Army to Mindanao to negotiate with the Moros, so it begs the question: if they bought these weapons in an open market, then who were the intended customers of these enterprising moros? it's hard to imagine that there would be lots visiting spaniards and filipinos from up north visiting these marketplaces...
anyway, back to the topic:
i did the hot water test on it and it does appear that it might be laminated. i might have to etch it sometimes in the future and will post it then.
jose, regarding your inquiry whether the ivory were pieced together: no, they are not. it's just that on the side were the appendage broke off, it appears like that area was filled in with pieces of ivory. weird, really...
Kai, keen observation there! i would love to see the mindanao version. i'm still looking for that post in which mabagani mentioned on how the kris became the unifying symbol of the Moros during Kudarat's era.
rick, you have a good point there, but how fast did this particular type of sword spread throughout the Moroland? one generation? two? just thinking out loud...

Rick · 24th December 2012, 06:21 AM

Yep, thinking out loud myself, Ron .

Trying to figure out the kris's point of entry into Philippine culture; or the Kris Culture's point of entry into the Philippines .

I'm up too late, I think .

VVV · 24th December 2012, 09:16 AM

Nice that you got this beauty.
I also watched it but it was too expensive to ship it to Europe in case I had won it.
It seems like Sulu has kept the oldest form of trunk/beak.
It's interesting that this is the most common form found in Peninsular Malaysia, too.
Why it is so needs to be researched more, of course...

Michael

Sajen · 25th December 2012, 01:52 PM

Very nice kalis you have got!

I think the main question was pointed out from Rick in post # 6.

Regards,

Detlef

Spunjer · 25th December 2012, 03:25 PM

thanks Detlef. it's still an ongoing debate as to the point of entry, although rick's statement is a strong possibility, in that it started down south. michael made a good point too, about how sulu's form is similar to peninsular malaysia and indonesia.
also, been thinking about the gangya line: is it safe to say that straight gangya lines are old, but not inclusive, meaning there were some that were made that has a slant at the end? perhaps the straight line was abandoned after a certain point. if that's the case then, krises with straight gangya can be safely assumed that it's of older variety?

Battara · 25th December 2012, 05:43 PM

Let's just say that I have seen older ones with everything right except the straight ganga line.

24th December 2012, 01:50 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Diaspora Perhaps we need to look at the direction of the spread of the Malay peoples (keris bearing cultures) throughout the Philippine Archipelago ? Somewhere in my readings I had gotten the impression that it began in the far South . That area is closest to Borneo, is it not ?

24th December 2012, 04:58 AM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for everyone's response so far... i'm posting a provenanced "archaic" kris that was purchased in Mindanao around december of 1899. the question would be, was this piece old (as in over a century old) when it was purchased? or was it purchased new? notice the how the black inlay is perfectly intact. btw, as a side note, there were other weapons that was purchased with this particular kris, including a huge Junggayan kalis and a gasah. i believe on one of the tags, it was stated that it was purchased in a marketplace. please understand though, that the officer that bought these weapons was one of the first americans that was sent by the Army to Mindanao to negotiate with the Moros, so it begs the question: if they bought these weapons in an open market, then who were the intended customers of these enterprising moros? it's hard to imagine that there would be lots visiting spaniards and filipinos from up north visiting these marketplaces... anyway, back to the topic: i did the hot water test on it and it does appear that it might be laminated. i might have to etch it sometimes in the future and will post it then. jose, regarding your inquiry whether the ivory were pieced together: no, they are not. it's just that on the side were the appendage broke off, it appears like that area was filled in with pieces of ivory. weird, really... Kai, keen observation there! i would love to see the mindanao version. i'm still looking for that post in which mabagani mentioned on how the kris became the unifying symbol of the Moros during Kudarat's era. rick, you have a good point there, but how fast did this particular type of sword spread throughout the Moroland? one generation? two? just thinking out loud... Attached Images

25th December 2012, 01:52 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Very nice kalis you have got! I think the main question was pointed out from Rick in post # 6. Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 25th December 2012 at 02:18 PM.

24th December 2012, 06:21 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Yep, thinking out loud myself, Ron . Trying to figure out the kris's point of entry into Philippine culture; or the Kris Culture's point of entry into the Philippines . I'm up too late, I think .

24th December 2012, 09:16 AM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice that you got this beauty. I also watched it but it was too expensive to ship it to Europe in case I had won it. It seems like Sulu has kept the oldest form of trunk/beak. It's interesting that this is the most common form found in Peninsular Malaysia, too. Why it is so needs to be researched more, of course... Michael

25th December 2012, 03:25 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks Detlef. it's still an ongoing debate as to the point of entry, although rick's statement is a strong possibility, in that it started down south. michael made a good point too, about how sulu's form is similar to peninsular malaysia and indonesia. also, been thinking about the gangya line: is it safe to say that straight gangya lines are old, but not inclusive, meaning there were some that were made that has a slant at the end? perhaps the straight line was abandoned after a certain point. if that's the case then, krises with straight gangya can be safely assumed that it's of older variety?

25th December 2012, 05:43 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Let's just say that I have seen older ones with everything right except the straight ganga line.