Persian Qajar Dagger

[Dom]

Hi everybody
may I introduce you my last "input"

since few time, this dagger reached my home
- Indo-Persian dagger from "Qajar era" 18/19th century
it is in metal, steel?, with inlaid copper fillets
I guess that this blade is a variety of "Persian Johar"
it's the so-called "Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"
I hope from your sagacity and expertise, to light on ... me

it has three inscriptions, 2 on the ricasso,
classical religious invocations (Shiite) YA ALI and YA ALLAH
too easy to translate, but the one on the heel of the guard,
it's in "Farsi" and we cannot translate it (hopefully, not found "made ​​in China" )

the handle as well as the scabbard, are covered by hunting scenes,
with a real catalog for all kind of animals, and even fish

the length is 35 cm (13,80 in)
the blade is 19 cm (7,48 in)
weight 780 gr (27,50 ozt)

please be free, to give yours comments, appreciations,
and more specially your critics, it's those last one, the most constructive

best regards

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Hi Dom,

Although the quality of the chiselled decoration on the scabbard and hilt are far superior to most, the style and construction along with the seeming absence of wear or patination make me think that this is a modern piece.

ATB
Gene

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Dom,

Although the quality of the chiselled decoration on the scabbard and hilt are far superior to most, the style and construction along with the seeming absence of wear or patination make me think that this is a modern piece.

ATB
Gene

Hi Gene
last ruler "Qajar" ; 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
that mean not more than 110 years ... generation for my parents (father/mother) ... modern time
in absence of "johar" I should have ignored this dagger ...
but it's not "modern" this "johar" or an "Indian duplicate"

also the "patina" on weapons less than 300/400 years, it's more grime than something "noble"
I respect too much, all those edged weapons, and I can't display here, a weapons not "cleaned" ...
Gene, have a look to those daggers http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16513
I have certainly not claim to have a dagger with museum quality,
but they are presented "intact," no traces or marks, of wear
... so ... modern copies?? I do not think so, all are old

anyway, thanks to have criticized and argumented your remarks

regards

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Gene
last ruler "Qajar" ; 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
that mean not more than 110 years ... generation for my parents (father/mother) ... modern time
in absence of "johar" I should have ignored this dagger ...
but it's not "modern" this "johar" or an "Indian duplicate"

also the "patina" on weapons less than 300/400 years, it's more grime than something "noble"
I respect too much, all those edged weapons, and I can't display here, a weapons not "cleaned" ...

anyway, thanks to have criticized and argumented your remarks

regards

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

The chiselled steel of the hilt and scabbard is first rate. Very nice work.

When you say 'Johar' do you use the term to mean Wootz or pattern welded steel?
The blade on your attractive dagger appears to be layered steel, 'semi' pattern welded. Midway between visible wide waves of lamination and the fully realised "raindrops" of the pattern below.

Do you mean that you have fully cleaned the 'patina' off of the dagger?

ATB
G

P.S. it's not meant to be "criticism" Dom.
Some nice ear-rings in that link BTW

[Atlantia]

Hi Dom,

Cross posting via edits!
I agree that the daggers in that thread are in superb condition.

But I still see much ageing and patina that I do not see on yours.

When I think of late Qajar Khanjar I think of them being more akin to this form:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16020

The attachment loops on your example reminds me of Arabian Jambiya.
The flat ground oval/diamond section blade with the more simple carved deoration and two colour koftgari look Indian (and show only minimal wear to the silver).
The more complex decoration of the scabbard and hilt have an indo-persian feel but exhibit no patina/oxidisation in the recesses and in general the piece seems like a 'fusion' of styles. but a distinctly 'Indian' feel IMVHO.

I'm certain I've seen another somewhere. I just can't recollect where.
Can you reference this type to dated examples?

[Dom]

with .. one stone, I'll shoot two birds

Originally Posted by Atlantia

P.S. it's not meant to be "criticism" Dom.
Some nice ear-rings in that link BTW

the perpetual misunderstanding (joke) between "froggy" and "roast-beef"
about "criticize" there are two kinds; negatives and positives
it was the last one, was going my comments
we have two languages, very close to each one, but some terms very similar leave the place to some light different interpretation

don't speak too much about ear-rings, when you said nice,
the word is weak, but if my wife saw that ...
it's me at this moment I will be a weak man

concerning, second post ...

Originally Posted by Atlantia

When I think of late Qajar Khanjar I think of them being more akin to this form:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16020

yes it's a "Qajar" khanjar, but due to miss care, his condition is very poor, oxidation and pitting due to rust, not to his age
a "noble" patina, as far as I know, must be "green" or "brown"

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The attachment loops on your example reminds me of Arabian Jambiya.
The flat ground oval/diamond section blade with the more simple carved deoration and two colour koftgari look Indian (and show only minimal wear to the silver).

I don't denied that there is a very strong influence between, Persia and India
I have an other Persian khanjar, same era, with a oval/diamond section blade, not "johar", and not Indian,
but it's need a serious refurbishing, that means this type of blade wasn't rare (pic attached)

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The more complex decoration of the scabbard and hilt have an indo-persian feel but exhibit no patina/oxidisation in the recesses and in general the piece seems like a 'fusion' of styles. but a distinctly 'Indian' feel IMVHO.

you mean by that, an edged weapon, without rust (please don't talk about patina, you know my POV ), and plenty dirt, must be a modern production ... interesting ...
but I don't share the concept

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'm certain I've seen another somewhere. I just can't recollect where.
Can you reference this type to dated examples?

the dating for the Qajar Dynasty era, it's the most simple, because recent, and very well documented
1st Qajar - 1786 - juin 1797 : Agha Mohammad Shah
last Qajar - 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
nothing before, and nothing after

by the way, I think to have identified the kind of "johar" with the book "Swords & Armour" "weapons of the Islamic World",
and I'm not to much convince that the wootz, of my blade it's the same, that you show

I love that kind of exchange,
very good opportunity to argument, in function of our reciprocal knowledge, and sensibility, thank you Gene

à +

Dom

[VANDERNOTTE]

some one are luky...... nice present por chrismas
congratulation don magnifica pieca
regard
jacques

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

with .. one stone, I'll shoot two birds
the perpetual misunderstanding (joke) between "froggy" and "roast-beef"
about "criticize" there are two kinds; negatives and positives
it was the last one, was going my comments
we have two languages, very close to each one, but some terms very similar leave the place to some light different interpretation

don't speak too much about ear-rings, when you said nice,
the word is weak, but if my wife saw that ...
it's me at this moment I will be a weak man

concerning, second post ...


yes it's a "Qajar" khanjar, but due to miss care, his condition is very poor, oxidation and pitting due to rust, not to his age
a "noble" patina, as far as I know, must be "green" or "brown"

I don't denied that there is a very strong influence between, Persia and India
I have an other Persian khanjar, same era, with a oval/diamond section blade, not "johar", and not Indian,
but it's need a serious refurbishing, that means this type of blade wasn't rare (pic attached)

you mean by that, an edged weapon, without rust (please don't talk about patina, you know my POV ), and plenty dirt, must be a modern production ... interesting ...
but I don't share the concept


the dating for the Qajar Dynasty era, it's the most simple, because recent, and very well documented
1st Qajar - 1786 - juin 1797 : Agha Mohammad Shah
last Qajar - 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
nothing before, and nothing after

by the way, I think to have identified the kind of "johar" with the book "Swords & Armour" "weapons of the Islamic World",
and I'm not to much convince that the wootz, of my blade it's the same, that you show

I love that kind of exchange,
very good opportunity to argument, in function of our reciprocal knowledge, and sensibility, thank you Gene

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

Patination, wear, signs of age....
"Patina" is often defined as verdigris or oxidisation, but it can just as easily be the accrued hand grease, dust and wax polish on a piece of wood furniture or the natural contrast of darkening and polishing that decades of handling and cleaning creates on a piece of steel that has never been left to rust or been mistreated.

The reason I don't use terms like 'johar' is that not every person uses them in the same context. Like 'damascus' or 'watered' which is why I asked for confirmation of what you meant.
I find these terms most confusing
So I always try to use the terms that are open to the 'least' interpretation:
Wootz, Mechanical wootz, Laminated steel, pattern welded etc.

So you see your blade as wootz and not pattern welded?

Lets see what others think. As always, I'm as happy to be wrong as I am to be right! As long as my knowledge is increased

[Battara]

My understanding of patina is the oxidation on the surface that is not corrosive.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

some one are luky...... nice present por chrismas
congratulation don magnifica pieca
regard
jacques

Thanks Jacques, I guess that it's one of my best dagger
sometime, it's good to be a lucky guy
but, you haven't to complain, either, with all that you showed us

with some days in advance; Merry X-Mas and "Bonne Année"

à +

Dom

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

So you see your blade as wootz and not pattern welded?

Lets see what others think. As always, I'm as happy to be wrong as I am to be right! As long as my knowledge is increased

as per as the doc with me ... yes
"Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"

but I'm agree with you, lets the other "fox" express their opinions

and I hope so that some distinguished "Farsi" translator will have a look on it

because as far as it's not in Arabic, it's not a religious mention,

if it's a poem, I'll be frustrated, may be an indication about his owner,
I doubt about that unfortunately, but nearly X-Mas ... might be a miracle ??

all the best

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

as per as the doc with me ... yes
"Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"

but I'm agree with you, lets the other "fox" express their opinions

and I hope so that some distinguished "Farsi" translator will have a look on it

because as far as it's not in Arabic, it's not a religious mention,

if it's a poem, I'll be frustrated, may be an indication about his owner,
I doubt about that unfortunately, but nearly X-Mas ... might be a miracle ??

all the best

à +

Dom

LOL! "tis the season"!

Happy Xmas mate.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Battara

My understanding of patina is the oxidation on the surface that is not corrosive.

YES SIR
otherwise, the other things are;
stains, rust, dirt, ultimately ... shit ...

here a serial of pics, it's a "shula" dagger from Morocco
not a great value, but for me not a reason to don't respected it

at least, I like it more after be refurbished;
- some linseed oil for the handle, to feed the ram's horn
- polishing copper
- some wax to feed the leather of the scabbard
- with very fine steel wool pad, cleaning of the blade, then treatment with "Renaissance" products to prevent the corrosion

I don't feel that I'm destroying the marks of the past, it's just to restore a dignity, it would NEVER ... have lost

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

I have seen this on ebay and wanted to bid on it. The craftmanship is excellent and Dom is right, it did have patina in the auction photos if I remember correctly.

Now the decoration is defintly good and the blade appears to be well made certainly not like the new indian stuff but the shape of the whole piece is unlike any Qajar piece I have seen..

It is possible that its Indian work but real work, not touristy. One thing for sure Indians borrow art from Persians so its all possible.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I have seen this on ebay and wanted to bid on it. The craftmanship is excellent and Dom is right, it did have patina in the auction photos if I remember correctly.

Now the decoration is defintly good and the blade appears to be well made certainly not like the new indian stuff but the shape of the whole piece is unlike any Qajar piece I have seen..

It is possible that its Indian work but real work, not touristy. One thing for sure Indians borrow art from Persians so its all possible.

Hi Lotfy

I absolutely agree that the craftsmanship on the chiseled decoration of the scabbard and hilt is 1st rate.
BUT! Stylistically it reminds me of the work of the Indian silversmiths of Calcutta.
It just doesn't look like Qajar work to me at all.

I've had a look at the original eBay auction:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ISLA...item20cdd92501
The 'patina' such as it was, still looks 'new' to me.
Even in a few decades, bare steel will darken, but I don't see any evidence of that on this dagger.
Even on the blade I can't see any indications of repeated drawing and withdrawing having left 'polished' lines on the grey etched surface.
In my humble experience that configuration of suspension loops would be more indicative of modern Arabian Jambiya rather than Qajar Khanjar.
It doesn't look to follow the usual method of being 'tucked into' a sash or belt hung from, as we'd usually see. It looks like it should be tied over a belt like some Jambiya.

Here is an example of a chiseled steel dagger of the Qajar style showing the type of style and patina that I'd expect.
Someone please come and show me another example of a dagger of the type that Dom has with concrete provenance?

[Dom]

Hi
Thanks Lotfi to have give yours comments, and appreciations

strange as the others are very silence ??

also ... a small up, for a translation of a text in "farsi" Thanks

à +

Dom

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Dom,
I think some are silent because this is a difficult one to call. It is a nicely executed piece and certainly worthy of a place in any collection but I can see where both sides are coming from. It has to me an Indian feel but not necessarily recent. Some of your photographs suggest that the patina/dirt has maybe been overcleaned, see the photo I have attached, it has signs of age in the corners. I hope experienced members will come in and maybe give you a more definitive answer. Regardless of 'age' it is a nice dagger I would be happy to own.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi everybody
may I introduce you my last "input"

since few time, this dagger reached my home
- Indo-Persian dagger from "Qajar era" 18/19th century
it is in metal, steel?, with inlaid copper fillets
I guess that this blade is a variety of "Persian Johar"
it's the so-called "Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"
I hope from your sagacity and expertise, to light on ... me

it has three inscriptions, 2 on the ricasso,
classical religious invocations (Shiite) YA ALI and YA ALLAH
too easy to translate, but the one on the heel of the guard,
it's in "Farsi" and we cannot translate it (hopefully, not found "made ​​in China" )

the handle as well as the scabbard, are covered by hunting scenes,
with a real catalog for all kind of animals, and even fish

the length is 35 cm (13,80 in)
the blade is 19 cm (7,48 in)
weight 780 gr (27,50 ozt)

please be free, to give yours comments, appreciations,
and more specially your critics, it's those last one, the most constructive

best regards

à +

Dom

Salaams Dom ~ Greetings and just a quick word on the decoration on the Hilt and Scabbard that I suspect is Persian ... Noahs Arc... I think it shows the Arc and its ramps on the hilt...I would say Qajar but no idea when.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

Hi Norman - Salam Alaykum Ibrahim
Thanks to have given your opinions

about age, I have no illusion,
the "Qajar dynasty" was stopped in 1925, that means ± 87 years ...
so the last "Qajar" is so to speak, contemporary

at least, since the beginning this point for me it's clear,
it's a modern/ancient khanjar

all the best

à +

Dom

[AJ1356]

DOM,
I've been looking over the inscription many times but unfortunetly I can not make out anything of it. Otherwise it is a very nice find, as far as Johar/Jawhar, I believe that is referred to wootz, yours seems to be Damascus steel.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

DOM,
I've been looking over the inscription many times but unfortunetly I can not make out anything of it. Otherwise it is a very nice find, as far as Johar/Jawhar, I believe that is referred to wootz, yours seems to be Damascus steel.

Salam my Bro.
Goddammit ...
I was having a full hope, to have the translation from you
hard luck ... but it's the life ...
anyway, thanks a lot to have took the time, to try a translation,
you're a good mate
all the best

à +

Dom

[AJ1356]

DOM,
I have not given up on it bro, but I have/am doing alot of (unwanted)traveling right now so I am not really in one place for long right now. As soo as I get a chance, I'll try to write down whatever it says, sometimes that helps.

[DaveA]

Dom,
Thank you for posting this beautiful item!

I notice that the overall shape of blade and hilt, and hilt decoration, is similar to one in my collection although many details differ. Mine is provisionally identified as Persian and I welcome any comments that would shed more light on its identification. Here are some pictures for your consideration.
Best Regards,
David A.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Dom,
Thank you for posting this beautiful item!

I notice that the overall shape of blade and hilt, and hilt decoration, is similar to one in my collection although many details differ.
Mine is provisionally identified as Persian and I welcome any comments that would shed more light on its identification. Here are some pictures for your consideration.
Best Regards,
David A.

Hi David
indeed, your "jambiya" seems to be from the same origin
it's a pity that, there is no scabbard, because the dagger was certainly having a nice one

anyway, the decor on ricasso, with the "2 peacock" is typically Qajar, or Persian

what's funny, I guess that our two daggers have the same slight defect;
- the blade is not firmly sealed in the hilt, there is some play

I have extrapolated for yours, looking at the pictures,
but mine has this little problem

did you get a close look at the blade ? no evidence for a special steel ?

all the best

à +

Dom

[DaveA]

Indeed, the steel is special and shows good watering. Here is a photo before I did an etch and polish. I will make some new photos and post them for you.

I too am sorry not to have a scabbard to match!

I'm wondering why both weapons have this slight defect in the hilt. My blade is firmly seated, with no play, however as you noted it looks bent. Could it be that the blades have moved in this way because they struck something hard? There is no evidence of damage to the edge.

[Lew]

Hi Dave

I really can't make out any discernible pattern in the steel . As far as both of your daggers having issues with fit at the hilt it just is a sign of poor fit and finish often seen on early to mid 20th pieces. Here is one from my collection with a wootz blade from about 1850 or so. You can see that Dom's is more 20th century than 19th and yours is more Indian than Persian in style.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Lew

Hi Dave

I really can't make out any discernible pattern in the steel ....e.

The pictures are disappointing in that regard. I agree.
I will endeavor to take a better picture. The lighting angle and maybe color seems to have a lot to do with how well patterns show up. If anyone has clues on blade photography and or filters/effects that bring out the pattern, I'd love to learn.

Dave

[Lew]

Dave

I oil my blade and place it near window and use indirect light than I adjust the photo contrast and midtone with my software.