Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

rasdan · 22nd December 2012, 01:38 AM

G'day Alan,

Yes if we are about to scientifically prove that it is hippo then what we had been doing is certainly inadequate and I surely don't have any answers..

Hi Detlef,

Wow, the picture is right there and I can't remember?. Must be that apocalypse thing. (actually I jumped to the end of the thread

) Thanks for kindly pointing out the pic!

Sajen · 22nd December 2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Hi Detlef,

Wow, the picture is right there and I can't remember?. Must be that apocalypse thing. (actually I jumped to the end of the thread

) Thanks for kindly pointing out the pic!

Hi Rasdan,

have posted the same picture by a other thread some time ago, I think you remember it from this time.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 23rd December 2012, 07:09 AM

Thanks Rasdan.

But if we cannot prove this hippo ivory thing, is it possible to at least identify the first time that it was raised as a possibility, upon what basis, and by whom?

asomotif · 23rd December 2012, 12:05 PM

Dear Alan,

The spotted line is only found in hippo ivory.
Probably it is a western collector thing that we want to know the exact origin of ivory, and that we not accept a term as "marine ivory".

One of your points is that salesmen in Indonesia do not use the term hippo.
But do they make a big selling point of the fact if a hilt is made from elefant ivory ?
And in these cases do they specifiy this into asian elephant, african elephant and/or even mammoth ivory ?

Best regards,
Willem

David · 23rd December 2012, 01:57 PM

Well, i will say that personal, from my own preferences as a Western collector, i am less interested in exactly what kind of ivory a hilt might be made of than i am the quality of the carving and the condition and patina of the piece. Elephant or hippo, i could care less really. It does seem to me that marine ivory (a term i do accept and usually assume is whale tooth since most dungong doesn't seem to have the mass to allow for the carving of many hilt forms) tends to age to a nice warm orange color that i do really like, but beyond that i really have no ivory preferences.

Jean · 23rd December 2012, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Probably it is a western collector thing that we want to know the exact origin of ivory, and that we not accept a term as "marine ivory".
Willem

Hello Willem,
Personally I fully accept the term "marine ivory" for kris hilts materials but for me it refers to spermwhale tooth, dugong tooth/tusk, and walrus tusk only.
I think that walrus ivory had been seldom used for making kris hilts and that because of the small size of the dugong tooth/tusk, it can only be used for relatively small and straight hilts (Jawa demam, putrasatu) but not for curved Bugis hilts for instance.
Best regards

rasdan · 23rd December 2012, 05:37 PM

G'day Alan,

I presume it probably started by a westerner recently. In my case, I stumbled upon the pic that Detlef had shown us earlier in this thread and I googled hippo ivory to see the possibility and I think it is possible that it is hippo since I didn't found anything else that matches the dotted criteria.

I did wondered how hippo ivory arrived here and the possibility that the people at that time "disguise" it as the cool sounding gigi ikan instead of the ugly hippo's tooth (assuming that people at that time know what is a hippo and have a common perception think that it is ugly and unclean) due to marketability and the cleanliness issue, but I never pursued the quest any further and I won't be able to defend my "theory" above.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd December 2012, 08:27 PM

Thank you gentlemen.

Willem, yes, I have read in this Forum many times that the dotted line proves that a material is hippo ivory. Many, many times.

What I would like to know is this:-

1) what is the source of this information? Hopefully it will be a credible source, possibly a book, or paper by some respected authority, or researcher, and with a verification from one or more other sources. I am looking for fact, not opinion.

2) when was this issue of "hippo ivory" relative to keris hilts first identified, and by whom?

Jean, I think you are naming "Webster" as the source for identification of hippo ivory by presence of a dotted line?

Who is Webster, how reliable is his work, when was it produced? Is there verification?

I have not raised the matter of where and when hippo ivory was first used, rather I have raised the matter of who first made the claim that certain keris hilts were made of hippo ivory, and when did this occur.

Rasdan, yes, I believe you're correct. I feel that it is absolutely a belief that is anchored in the western keris world, and a relatively new belief at that. This is the reason that I am attempting to fix a beginning point for this entry of the hippo ivory belief into keris collecting.

I'm not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory, but what I would like to see is a qualifier when the possibility of hippo ivory arises, for example:-

"because of the dotted line (Webster) there is a high probability that this hilt is made of hippo ivory"

rather than:-

" this hilt is of hippo ivory"

David, this is not a comment on hippo ivory, but on quality of workmanship.

Thirty years ago in Surabaya I bought a large number of keris hilts from several different dealers. Some were wood, some were various kinds of ivory, some were in other materials. Some were old, some were recent. Most were Madurese and intricately carved.

The highest prices were paid for the finest workmanship. Material had very little impact on price. I paid more for some wooden hilts than I did for some ivory hilts. The determining factor for price was quality, not material.

In Jawa this situation prevailed through until the tree huggers swung into action and succeeded in getting the international trade in ivory banned. As predicted, the price of ivory immediately sky-rocketed and the illegal ivory trade along with mass extinctions of elephants took off like gang busters.

If you want make something more valuable, ban trade in that item.

Jean · 23rd December 2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks Rasdan.

But if we cannot prove this hippo ivory thing, is it possible to at least identify the first time that it was raised as a possibility, upon what basis, and by whom?

Hello Alan,
I think that it will be very difficult to identify when and where the hippo ivory issue for making kris hilts started or when it was first documented, especially because it probably happened a long time ago and not in Java nor Bali.
And about scientifically proving the hippo ivory thing we would need to resort to a recognized materials analysis laboratory but personally I have no access to any at present. According to the litterature (Webster) the physical properties of hippo ivory differ from elephant ivory especially its specific gravity (1.8 to 1.95 versus 1.7 to 1.85) and its hardness (5 versus 2.5-3, this is the most marked difference). This shows the more mineralized structure of hippo ivory. These 2 physical differences are well (although qualitatively) reflected in the hilts attributed to hippo ivory IMO, together with the generally better ageing performance (less discolouring and cracks) and the presence of the famous dotted line. There are probably some more modern and decisive techniques (radiation, DNA analysis) able to differentiate them also but I am not aware of any.
What do our distinguished members from Singapore have to say about the subject?
Regards

22nd December 2012, 01:38 AM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	G'day Alan, Yes if we are about to scientifically prove that it is hippo then what we had been doing is certainly inadequate and I surely don't have any answers.. Hi Detlef, Wow, the picture is right there and I can't remember?. Must be that apocalypse thing. (actually I jumped to the end of the thread ) Thanks for kindly pointing out the pic!

23rd December 2012, 07:09 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Thanks Rasdan. But if we cannot prove this hippo ivory thing, is it possible to at least identify the first time that it was raised as a possibility, upon what basis, and by whom?

23rd December 2012, 12:05 PM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Dear Alan, The spotted line is only found in hippo ivory. Probably it is a western collector thing that we want to know the exact origin of ivory, and that we not accept a term as "marine ivory". One of your points is that salesmen in Indonesia do not use the term hippo. But do they make a big selling point of the fact if a hilt is made from elefant ivory ? And in these cases do they specifiy this into asian elephant, african elephant and/or even mammoth ivory ? Best regards, Willem

23rd December 2012, 01:57 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Well, i will say that personal, from my own preferences as a Western collector, i am less interested in exactly what kind of ivory a hilt might be made of than i am the quality of the carving and the condition and patina of the piece. Elephant or hippo, i could care less really. It does seem to me that marine ivory (a term i do accept and usually assume is whale tooth since most dungong doesn't seem to have the mass to allow for the carving of many hilt forms) tends to age to a nice warm orange color that i do really like, but beyond that i really have no ivory preferences.

23rd December 2012, 05:37 PM	#7
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	G'day Alan, I presume it probably started by a westerner recently. In my case, I stumbled upon the pic that Detlef had shown us earlier in this thread and I googled hippo ivory to see the possibility and I think it is possible that it is hippo since I didn't found anything else that matches the dotted criteria. I did wondered how hippo ivory arrived here and the possibility that the people at that time "disguise" it as the cool sounding gigi ikan instead of the ugly hippo's tooth (assuming that people at that time know what is a hippo and have a common perception think that it is ugly and unclean) due to marketability and the cleanliness issue, but I never pursued the quest any further and I won't be able to defend my "theory" above.

23rd December 2012, 08:27 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Thank you gentlemen. Willem, yes, I have read in this Forum many times that the dotted line proves that a material is hippo ivory. Many, many times. What I would like to know is this:- 1) what is the source of this information? Hopefully it will be a credible source, possibly a book, or paper by some respected authority, or researcher, and with a verification from one or more other sources. I am looking for fact, not opinion. 2) when was this issue of "hippo ivory" relative to keris hilts first identified, and by whom? Jean, I think you are naming "Webster" as the source for identification of hippo ivory by presence of a dotted line? Who is Webster, how reliable is his work, when was it produced? Is there verification? I have not raised the matter of where and when hippo ivory was first used, rather I have raised the matter of who first made the claim that certain keris hilts were made of hippo ivory, and when did this occur. Rasdan, yes, I believe you're correct. I feel that it is absolutely a belief that is anchored in the western keris world, and a relatively new belief at that. This is the reason that I am attempting to fix a beginning point for this entry of the hippo ivory belief into keris collecting. I'm not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory, but what I would like to see is a qualifier when the possibility of hippo ivory arises, for example:- "because of the dotted line (Webster) there is a high probability that this hilt is made of hippo ivory" rather than:- " this hilt is of hippo ivory" David, this is not a comment on hippo ivory, but on quality of workmanship. Thirty years ago in Surabaya I bought a large number of keris hilts from several different dealers. Some were wood, some were various kinds of ivory, some were in other materials. Some were old, some were recent. Most were Madurese and intricately carved. The highest prices were paid for the finest workmanship. Material had very little impact on price. I paid more for some wooden hilts than I did for some ivory hilts. The determining factor for price was quality, not material. In Jawa this situation prevailed through until the tree huggers swung into action and succeeded in getting the international trade in ivory banned. As predicted, the price of ivory immediately sky-rocketed and the illegal ivory trade along with mass extinctions of elephants took off like gang busters. If you want make something more valuable, ban trade in that item.