A nimcha that was not.... :-)

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2012, 02:36 PM

Ariel, thank you so much for that added detail! I was thinking that the Astavatsaturyan book might be the source. It is frustrating that often authors will pop in these little tidbits as if they should be common knowledge. The language barrier for many of us is enough to impede the subtle nuances in such text, let alone cultural semantics and colloquial terms.
I think your observations on the lessening of actual Hungarian provenance due to the character of the Iraqi example, and the imitation of these original features. This is pretty much the same kind of situation encountered with virtually all types of markings and motif, like with the 'Passau wolf'; the 'sickle marks' and so many others.
I really appreciate your sharing and insight into this, and look forward to anything further you might find through your contacts.
Great stuff Ariel!

All the very best,
Jim

ariel · 22nd December 2012, 12:43 PM

A colleague from the Russian Forum kindly provided a picture of an old Transylvanian blade ( Hungarian hunting sword) with their magical signs. He suggested that the Seal of Suleiman on my blade is apparently a primitively-drawn motif of the " white magic" symbol.

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2012, 12:02 PM

Hi Ariel,
Thank you for posting these additional images, and that information. I was just reading another post by Vaho on his article on the Khevsurian 'dashna' and just now realized how closely some of these 'white magic' geometrics and images might be found in that context as well.
It seems in Askhabov ("Chechen Arms") some of these curious 'looped' corner devices are seen on some of the blades and I wonder if these could derive from the Hungarian blades which entered Caucasian areas.

In looking at this sabre in your original post it is tempting to note how closely the blades and sabres in Arabian context are to some of the Khevsurian sabres in thier rugged nature and the clearly established Hungarian denominator in blades, as well as perhaps some hilt features.
It is sometimes hard to imagine the complexity of trade and cultural diffusion between areas not typically thought of as directly connected.

All the best,
Jim

A.alnakkas · 28th December 2012, 03:06 PM

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=5355

Here is one of those

ariel · 28th December 2012, 07:57 PM

Thank, Lotfi!
When in doubt, look over Artzi's collection:-)

22nd December 2012, 12:43 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A colleague from the Russian Forum kindly provided a picture of an old Transylvanian blade ( Hungarian hunting sword) with their magical signs. He suggested that the Seal of Suleiman on my blade is apparently a primitively-drawn motif of the " white magic" symbol. Attached Images

21st December 2012, 02:36 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Ariel, thank you so much for that added detail! I was thinking that the Astavatsaturyan book might be the source. It is frustrating that often authors will pop in these little tidbits as if they should be common knowledge. The language barrier for many of us is enough to impede the subtle nuances in such text, let alone cultural semantics and colloquial terms. I think your observations on the lessening of actual Hungarian provenance due to the character of the Iraqi example, and the imitation of these original features. This is pretty much the same kind of situation encountered with virtually all types of markings and motif, like with the 'Passau wolf'; the 'sickle marks' and so many others. I really appreciate your sharing and insight into this, and look forward to anything further you might find through your contacts. Great stuff Ariel! All the very best, Jim

23rd December 2012, 12:02 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Hi Ariel, Thank you for posting these additional images, and that information. I was just reading another post by Vaho on his article on the Khevsurian 'dashna' and just now realized how closely some of these 'white magic' geometrics and images might be found in that context as well. It seems in Askhabov ("Chechen Arms") some of these curious 'looped' corner devices are seen on some of the blades and I wonder if these could derive from the Hungarian blades which entered Caucasian areas. In looking at this sabre in your original post it is tempting to note how closely the blades and sabres in Arabian context are to some of the Khevsurian sabres in thier rugged nature and the clearly established Hungarian denominator in blades, as well as perhaps some hilt features. It is sometimes hard to imagine the complexity of trade and cultural diffusion between areas not typically thought of as directly connected. All the best, Jim

28th December 2012, 03:06 PM	#4
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=5355 Here is one of those

28th December 2012, 07:57 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thank, Lotfi! When in doubt, look over Artzi's collection:-)