Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Your welcome

Still guessing on my side...
I wonder if this blunderbuss could have been decorated on the Philippines ?
Magic squares / talismanic signs etc. they are much more common in that region imho.

Best regards,
Willem

Willem,
I have never seen any magic squares or simiya'/abjad-letter symbolism on a Moro weapon???

Michael

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by VVV

Willem,
I have never seen any magic squares or simiya'/abjad-letter symbolism on a Moro weapon???

Michael

Hello Michael,

Yes, you are right, I was just typing before thinking.

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=magic+squares

[kai]

Hello Willem,

Sorry, posts crossed.

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel

Yeah, I was thinking of Erik's neat blade, too.

Just as a sidenote for Cerjak, real wafaq are also a fairly common feature on upper-end Beladah Belabang (misnamed Parang Nabur). So, other talismanic invocations would certainly be no surprise from this area.

Regards,
Kai

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Willem,

Sorry, posts crossed.


Yeah, I was thinking of Erik's neat blade, too.

Just as a sidenote for Cerjak, real wafaq are also a fairly common feature on upper-end Beladah Belabang (misnamed Parang Nabur). So, other talismanic invocations would certainly be no surprise from this area.

Regards,
Kai

Dear Kai

Thank you for your explanation some time it is hard for me to follow this dicussion but I have to say that I 'm learning a lot about Ethnographic weapon in this forum
Kind regards

Cerjak

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Michael,

Yes, you are right, I was just typing before thinking.

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=magic+squares

Dear Willem

You was right to focus on the barrel’s decoration ,I was more taking care only about those inscriptions in the wood.
So many thank for your good opinion and this discovery about my blunderbuss.
Kind regards

Jean-Luc

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by asomotif

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=magic+squares

To make it a bit more complexer :-)

In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword).
On page 325, the most upper image, on Javanese copper items...

But looking further in the same book I think we got the answer of these motifs on page 395:
These motifs are described here as: "Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design."

Also on page 396 we find "examples of various Chinese Japanese, Indian and Indonesian key-and-hook designs."

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Maurice

In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword).


"Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design."[/B]

Here two images I scanned from the book on page 395, which come the closest to the motifs on the blunderbuss barrel and Erik's sword.
For those who don't have the book....

[Cerjak]

I Had the suprise today to see the same ornement on one second blunderbuss who seems to be the same model but still with his fintlock.

So should be from the same local gunmaker ..

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Maurice

To make it a bit more complexer :-)

In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword).
On page 325, the most upper image, on Javanese copper items...

But looking further in the same book I think we got the answer of these motifs on page 395:
These motifs are described here as: "Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design."

Also on page 396 we find "examples of various Chinese Japanese, Indian and Indonesian key-and-hook designs."

When reading a bit in one of the juynbollen, i came across a balinese knife with these bandji-ornaments. According Juynboll, who calls this motif also "bandji", these bandji's exist out of more swastika's motifs. Sometimes so abstractly that we even can't see the clear swastika anymore.
Ps. Balinese knife can be viewed at the Leiden database, nr. 466/2


Maurice

[Maurice]

Conclusion! We can't label these bandji ornaments at a certain area. They show up all over the indonesian archipellago!

Maurice

[David]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Conclusion! We can't label these bandji ornaments at a certain area. They show up all over the indonesian archipellago!

Maurice

I have to agree with this conclusion, you will not place exact origin on any of these weapons based upon the bandji patterns on the gun barrels. This is a standard design throughout Indonesia seen in textiles and architectural features. The word "bandja" is taken from the Hokkiên dialect of Chinese and literally means swastika. It has Hindu/Buddhist significance, though this does not necessarily mean that the owners of these weapons were Hindu or Buddhist. The peoples of Indonesia have always been inclusionary people and have adopted both Hindu and Islamic symbolism in a syncretic manner along with the original animistic traditions that existed before these influences entered the archipelago.
I think Michael was on to something in regards to origin early on noting the circular rattan wrap on the OP's gun that i have only seen on Dayak weapons.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

I have to agree with this conclusion, you will not place exact origin on any of these weapons based upon the bandji patterns on the gun barrels. This is a standard design throughout Indonesia seen in textiles and architectural features. The word "bandja" is taken from the Hokkiên dialect of Chinese and literally means swastika. It has Hindu/Buddhist significance, though this does not necessarily mean that the owners of these weapons were Hindu or Buddhist. The peoples of Indonesia have always been inclusionary people and have adopted both Hindu and Islamic symbolism in a syncretic manner along with the original animistic traditions that existed before these influences entered the archipelago.
I think Michael was on to something in regards to origin early on noting the circular rattan wrap on the OP's gun that i have only seen on Dayak weapons.

Thank you for the explanation of the word "Bandja" David! That explains a lot!
I agree the "katon evok's" (woven ratan knots) point out of the Borneo direction.
But on most of the blunderbusses you don't find these kind of knots, even if they are from Borneo. And than it will be a lot more difficult to nail down the origine.