A nimcha that was not.... :-)

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2012, 01:46 PM

Thanks very much Ariel for elaborating on this. I wish I had Emma's book at hand, but I was not among those brought with me in the bookmobile.
I think your interpretations from her books have been one of the vital denominators here in better understanding these Caucasian weapons and thier often key influences in so many other regions.

The illustration plate from Kovac's book is most telling, and as I mentioned I had never heard of the 'Transylvanian knot'. As I understand the curious sigil type device on the left and the unidentified and presumably bird figure at bottom are elements of the 'TK'. What I am wondering is how the bird figures in, and what the term itself applies to. It seems like most talismanically applied devices or images have some sort of history or traditional origin.
I am wondering if perhaps the 'TK' term derives from the often colorful and mysterious terms used in Caucasian parlance to describe these adopted markings and symbols, such as the 'gurda', 'ters maymal' and kaldam?

Are the words or terms inscribed in the bannerlike motif in that same plate, but above the images described included collectively in the 'TK' term, or are they simply included in the plate as markings? I am wondering what these words signify, makers name or an invocation?

I know very inquisitive, but you happen to not only have these references, but the language skills and contacts pertinant in using them. I would be most grateful for your further perspective on this questions, as I mentioned the one regarding those inscribed words having been perplexing for years in my ever open cases

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 19th December 2012, 05:47 PM

Dear Jim,
AFAIK, the locals put either a single mark on their blade, or the entire panoply: eg, Gorda + something else, Gorda and "little bees" ( stars, essentially), TK and Vivat Hussar or Virgo Maria, Patrona Hungariae ( misspelled, as a rule). It was a marketing tool, not different from any other culture.

Dear Spiral,
Never seen or heard of a fish on Caucasian blades. Old Mamluk swords apparently often had a fish as a handle fitting, but that's too far away and long gone:-)

spiral · 19th December 2012, 07:16 PM

Thank you Ariel. One to ponder...

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 20th December 2012, 03:22 AM

Thanks very much Ariel. It does seem of course that certain marks and symbolic motif were often used collectively to allude to blade quality and talismanic imbuement.
What I am wondering is where in the world did the 'Transylvanian knot' term come from, who used it , and what did that mean? Was the illustration plate you showed from the Kovacs book?

ariel · 21st December 2012, 12:19 PM

Jim,
The only source I was able to find for the Transylvanian Knot term is the Astvatsaturyan's book.
She doesn' dwell on it, but just mentions in a single paragraph that it was a "white magic" symbol consisting of 3 knots and an undecipherable latin inscription in the middle ( see the Post #6, it is the upper row on the left). She mentions without reference ( shouldn't we all know such obvious things?:-) that the blades were made in Transylvania, 17-18th century and were of excellent quality and gave a beautiful ring when flicked. They were very popular in Circassia and fakes were abound ( see same post, lower row). That's it. End of quote and story. I will inquire further re. potentially Circassian source.

In a larger vein, I was very impressed by the supposedly Iraqi sword shown by Lotfi. Indeed, a very similar configuration of the pommel. Together with the obviously "homemade" decorations, and faked "Transylvanian Knot" motives, it makes the genuinely Hungarian source less likely.

Thanks to all for all the help and thoughts. Sometimes, sharp and pointy things present a genuine mystery and there is a need for several heads :-) to solve the puzzle.
Please continue adding your thoughts!

Happy Holidays!

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2012, 02:36 PM

Ariel, thank you so much for that added detail! I was thinking that the Astavatsaturyan book might be the source. It is frustrating that often authors will pop in these little tidbits as if they should be common knowledge. The language barrier for many of us is enough to impede the subtle nuances in such text, let alone cultural semantics and colloquial terms.
I think your observations on the lessening of actual Hungarian provenance due to the character of the Iraqi example, and the imitation of these original features. This is pretty much the same kind of situation encountered with virtually all types of markings and motif, like with the 'Passau wolf'; the 'sickle marks' and so many others.
I really appreciate your sharing and insight into this, and look forward to anything further you might find through your contacts.
Great stuff Ariel!

All the very best,
Jim

ariel · 22nd December 2012, 12:43 PM

A colleague from the Russian Forum kindly provided a picture of an old Transylvanian blade ( Hungarian hunting sword) with their magical signs. He suggested that the Seal of Suleiman on my blade is apparently a primitively-drawn motif of the " white magic" symbol.

21st December 2012, 12:19 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, The only source I was able to find for the Transylvanian Knot term is the Astvatsaturyan's book. She doesn' dwell on it, but just mentions in a single paragraph that it was a "white magic" symbol consisting of 3 knots and an undecipherable latin inscription in the middle ( see the Post #6, it is the upper row on the left). She mentions without reference ( shouldn't we all know such obvious things?:-) that the blades were made in Transylvania, 17-18th century and were of excellent quality and gave a beautiful ring when flicked. They were very popular in Circassia and fakes were abound ( see same post, lower row). That's it. End of quote and story. I will inquire further re. potentially Circassian source. In a larger vein, I was very impressed by the supposedly Iraqi sword shown by Lotfi. Indeed, a very similar configuration of the pommel. Together with the obviously "homemade" decorations, and faked "Transylvanian Knot" motives, it makes the genuinely Hungarian source less likely. Thanks to all for all the help and thoughts. Sometimes, sharp and pointy things present a genuine mystery and there is a need for several heads :-) to solve the puzzle. Please continue adding your thoughts! Happy Holidays! Last edited by ariel; 21st December 2012 at 12:35 PM.

22nd December 2012, 12:43 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A colleague from the Russian Forum kindly provided a picture of an old Transylvanian blade ( Hungarian hunting sword) with their magical signs. He suggested that the Seal of Suleiman on my blade is apparently a primitively-drawn motif of the " white magic" symbol. Attached Images

19th December 2012, 01:46 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Ariel for elaborating on this. I wish I had Emma's book at hand, but I was not among those brought with me in the bookmobile. I think your interpretations from her books have been one of the vital denominators here in better understanding these Caucasian weapons and thier often key influences in so many other regions. The illustration plate from Kovac's book is most telling, and as I mentioned I had never heard of the 'Transylvanian knot'. As I understand the curious sigil type device on the left and the unidentified and presumably bird figure at bottom are elements of the 'TK'. What I am wondering is how the bird figures in, and what the term itself applies to. It seems like most talismanically applied devices or images have some sort of history or traditional origin. I am wondering if perhaps the 'TK' term derives from the often colorful and mysterious terms used in Caucasian parlance to describe these adopted markings and symbols, such as the 'gurda', 'ters maymal' and kaldam? Are the words or terms inscribed in the bannerlike motif in that same plate, but above the images described included collectively in the 'TK' term, or are they simply included in the plate as markings? I am wondering what these words signify, makers name or an invocation? I know very inquisitive, but you happen to not only have these references, but the language skills and contacts pertinant in using them. I would be most grateful for your further perspective on this questions, as I mentioned the one regarding those inscribed words having been perplexing for years in my ever open cases All the best, Jim

19th December 2012, 05:47 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dear Jim, AFAIK, the locals put either a single mark on their blade, or the entire panoply: eg, Gorda + something else, Gorda and "little bees" ( stars, essentially), TK and Vivat Hussar or Virgo Maria, Patrona Hungariae ( misspelled, as a rule). It was a marketing tool, not different from any other culture. Dear Spiral, Never seen or heard of a fish on Caucasian blades. Old Mamluk swords apparently often had a fish as a handle fitting, but that's too far away and long gone:-)

19th December 2012, 07:16 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thank you Ariel. One to ponder... Spiral

20th December 2012, 03:22 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Ariel. It does seem of course that certain marks and symbolic motif were often used collectively to allude to blade quality and talismanic imbuement. What I am wondering is where in the world did the 'Transylvanian knot' term come from, who used it , and what did that mean? Was the illustration plate you showed from the Kovacs book?

21st December 2012, 02:36 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Ariel, thank you so much for that added detail! I was thinking that the Astavatsaturyan book might be the source. It is frustrating that often authors will pop in these little tidbits as if they should be common knowledge. The language barrier for many of us is enough to impede the subtle nuances in such text, let alone cultural semantics and colloquial terms. I think your observations on the lessening of actual Hungarian provenance due to the character of the Iraqi example, and the imitation of these original features. This is pretty much the same kind of situation encountered with virtually all types of markings and motif, like with the 'Passau wolf'; the 'sickle marks' and so many others. I really appreciate your sharing and insight into this, and look forward to anything further you might find through your contacts. Great stuff Ariel! All the very best, Jim