VIVAT PANDOUR INSCRIBED HUSSAR SWORD

Chris Evans · 19th December 2012, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

It is quite a typical hungarian hussar sword but with "vivat pandour" inscoriptions... Hmmm... it raises me some questions. Those inscriptions are believed to be end of 18 century and commonly found on hunting blades. I never seen the on a hussar sword before.

What can you tell me about it?

Any comment is apreciated.

Don't know anything about these, but do know that the Pandours were irregular soldiers serving the Hapsburgs in that neck of the woods. Did a quick search and found this:

pandour [ˈpændʊə]

(Historical Terms) one of an 18th-century force of Croatian soldiers in the Austrian service, notorious for their brutality [via French from Hungarian pandur, from Croat: guard, probably from Medieval Latin banderius summoner, from bannum ban1]

From: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pandour

And all the very best for the festive season to all.

Cheers
Chris

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2012, 05:25 AM

An attractive sabre, but for me personally I'm a bit uncomfortable with its 'interpretative' characteristics in which the hilt is 'in the style of' the early 17th century Hungarian forms. However the quillons were typically longer, as was the langet bar which typically ran up the grip most of the way. This configuration to me resembles a kaskara type crossguard, and the langet resembles some 18th century Austrian and German cavalry sabres of 1780s.

The blade seems like an 18th century European cavalry blade with clipped back/shallow yelman. As Chris has well noted the Pandours were irregular troops for Austria during the War of the Austrian Succession (1740-48) originally formed by Baron von Trenck. Thier exploits, while effective for a time, became notably troublesome when many of these troops became renegades and the units disbanded with von Trenck imprisoned (he committed suicide in prison 1749). Thier fearsome reputation became well known throughout Europe in these times however, and motif heralding them in a commemorative sense began to appear as noted, on plug type hunting bayonets around 1750+.
As far as I have known, these motif and inscriptions using the term 'VIVAT PANDUR' only occurred on these bayonets ( R.D.C.Evans, 'The Plug Bayonet', 2002, p.94) and on some court type hunting swords of later in the 18th century (Bashford Dean, 1929; Buttin, 1933).
This mid to latter 18th century inscription, seems out of place on what would seem to be an interpretation of a Hungarian sabre of 150 years before. The pommel also is quite contrary to the usual protrusion on the early sabres for better grip.
My opinions based on these photos of the example posted and comparison to images of actual specimens of Hungarian sabres c.1600 in Ostrowski, 1979. As always age can best be detected with hands on handling, and while tempted to suggest 18th century, I cannot see why a cavalry sabre of 18th century would be made in this style when at this time they had knuckleguards, nor with this motif.

Chris Evans · 20th December 2012, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The pommel also is quite contrary to the usual protrusion on the early sabres for better grip.

The lack of patina on the pommel and the almost bare metal of the peened tang also seems odd. And yes, the grip does not appear to be conducive to a secure hold on the sword.

Seasons greetings to all.

Cheers
Chris

Valjhun · 13th January 2013, 09:58 PM

Well thatone is much better, I guess

Well, at least, apart from the knot

Sorry for the low quality pics.

What are those markings, Jim?

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2013, 06:23 PM

While the pics are agreeably on the rough side, this sabre seems more impressive agewise, though the sword knot of course has nothing to do with the sword as an original element.
These markings are a type of European device which seem to evolved from earlier Italian makers stamps of about 16th century, a sort of 'star' image closely related to the 'twig' and 'marca mosca' forms.
The circle with radiating lines seems to resemble solar symbols, but is referred to by Briggs (1965, p.49) as a 'cogwheel' type mark.

It seems these 'cogwheels' occur on Swiss arms c.1560s and in various groupings on N. Italian blades c. 1600-20. While Briggs suggests German copying of these, it seems those are not open circles but filled and not in larger groupings like the Italian configurations.

The Italians seemed to favor these multiple and linear repititions of single devices in certain examples, and these 'cogwheels' even seem to occur in some of the sickle type marks instead of the three dots.

Since this sword seems East European, either Hungarian or Polish, and with these Italian style grouping of these 'cogwheels', it could possibly be a Styrian product as they seem to have favored Italian markings (especially the sickles) and they are known to have been suppliers to Hungarian producers.

Valjhun · 15th January 2013, 02:26 AM

Great! Thank you Jim!

Thank you very much. In the meanwhile I searchead a little in my limited literature and found a similar sword in the croatian book Ubojite Ojstrice by Mario Kovac, under the item number 99 on pages 69 and 114. It is a much better looking husar sword marked with crosses rather than cogs, but arranged in a similar way. The interesting fact is, that it bears also the mark of G.Lindl (according to the author) from Judenburg in Styria.

Ironically, the sword returned to Styria, where apparently was produced and it is still located in Styria in an old collection (togheter with that composite kilij I put for comment recently). It is kept by a nice old Lady whos husband passed away and she is still unsure wheter keep the collection or wheter to sell it. I will post better pics when or if I have the chance to visit her.

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2013, 05:55 PM

Thank you so much Valjhun!
I do not have the book you note on Croatian arms, but thank you for the support toward my Styrian assessment, also for the detail on this makers name. It is fascinating that this sword indeed returned to Styria, and I really look forward to more on this as it develops, please keep us posted!
It is extremely rare to find one of these with this kind of provenance.
I am sending PM.

All the best,
Jim

Victrix · 18th April 2017, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Great! Thank you Jim!

Thank you very much. In the meanwhile I searchead a little in my limited literature and found a similar sword in the croatian book Ubojite Ojstrice by Mario Kovac, under the item number 99 on pages 69 and 114. It is a much better looking husar sword marked with crosses rather than cogs, but arranged in a similar way. The interesting fact is, that it bears also the mark of G.Lindl (according to the author) from Judenburg in Styria.

Ironically, the sword returned to Styria, where apparently was produced and it is still located in Styria in an old collection (togheter with that composite kilij I put for comment recently). It is kept by a nice old Lady whos husband passed away and she is still unsure wheter keep the collection or wheter to sell it. I will post better pics when or if I have the chance to visit her.

Hi Valjhun,

I wonder if you know how I can best obtain a copy of the book Ubojite Ostrice? I tried to contact the Museum of Zagorje to no avail.

Many thanks for your advice.

Victrix · 30th April 2017, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Great! Thank you Jim!

Thank you very much. In the meanwhile I searchead a little in my limited literature and found a similar sword in the croatian book Ubojite Ojstrice by Mario Kovac, under the item number 99 on pages 69 and 114. It is a much better looking husar sword marked with crosses rather than cogs, but arranged in a similar way. The interesting fact is, that it bears also the mark of G.Lindl (according to the author) from Judenburg in Styria.

Ironically, the sword returned to Styria, where apparently was produced and it is still located in Styria in an old collection (togheter with that composite kilij I put for comment recently). It is kept by a nice old Lady whos husband passed away and she is still unsure wheter keep the collection or wheter to sell it. I will post better pics when or if I have the chance to visit her.

I wonder if someone who has the catalogue Ubojite Ostrice (2003) by Mario Kovac and Vlatka Filipcic Maligec can scan or photo pp.69 and 114 and post them here or send them to me in a PM? I have a special interest in the sword supposedly depicted on those pages. I have tried to obtain a copy of this catalogue but to no avail. Many thanks.

13th January 2013, 09:58 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well thatone is much better, I guess Well, at least, apart from the knot Sorry for the low quality pics. What are those markings, Jim? Attached Images

19th December 2012, 05:25 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,559	An attractive sabre, but for me personally I'm a bit uncomfortable with its 'interpretative' characteristics in which the hilt is 'in the style of' the early 17th century Hungarian forms. However the quillons were typically longer, as was the langet bar which typically ran up the grip most of the way. This configuration to me resembles a kaskara type crossguard, and the langet resembles some 18th century Austrian and German cavalry sabres of 1780s. The blade seems like an 18th century European cavalry blade with clipped back/shallow yelman. As Chris has well noted the Pandours were irregular troops for Austria during the War of the Austrian Succession (1740-48) originally formed by Baron von Trenck. Thier exploits, while effective for a time, became notably troublesome when many of these troops became renegades and the units disbanded with von Trenck imprisoned (he committed suicide in prison 1749). Thier fearsome reputation became well known throughout Europe in these times however, and motif heralding them in a commemorative sense began to appear as noted, on plug type hunting bayonets around 1750+. As far as I have known, these motif and inscriptions using the term 'VIVAT PANDUR' only occurred on these bayonets ( R.D.C.Evans, 'The Plug Bayonet', 2002, p.94) and on some court type hunting swords of later in the 18th century (Bashford Dean, 1929; Buttin, 1933). This mid to latter 18th century inscription, seems out of place on what would seem to be an interpretation of a Hungarian sabre of 150 years before. The pommel also is quite contrary to the usual protrusion on the early sabres for better grip. My opinions based on these photos of the example posted and comparison to images of actual specimens of Hungarian sabres c.1600 in Ostrowski, 1979. As always age can best be detected with hands on handling, and while tempted to suggest 18th century, I cannot see why a cavalry sabre of 18th century would be made in this style when at this time they had knuckleguards, nor with this motif.

14th January 2013, 06:23 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,559	While the pics are agreeably on the rough side, this sabre seems more impressive agewise, though the sword knot of course has nothing to do with the sword as an original element. These markings are a type of European device which seem to evolved from earlier Italian makers stamps of about 16th century, a sort of 'star' image closely related to the 'twig' and 'marca mosca' forms. The circle with radiating lines seems to resemble solar symbols, but is referred to by Briggs (1965, p.49) as a 'cogwheel' type mark. It seems these 'cogwheels' occur on Swiss arms c.1560s and in various groupings on N. Italian blades c. 1600-20. While Briggs suggests German copying of these, it seems those are not open circles but filled and not in larger groupings like the Italian configurations. The Italians seemed to favor these multiple and linear repititions of single devices in certain examples, and these 'cogwheels' even seem to occur in some of the sickle type marks instead of the three dots. Since this sword seems East European, either Hungarian or Polish, and with these Italian style grouping of these 'cogwheels', it could possibly be a Styrian product as they seem to have favored Italian markings (especially the sickles) and they are known to have been suppliers to Hungarian producers.

15th January 2013, 02:26 AM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Great! Thank you Jim! Thank you very much. In the meanwhile I searchead a little in my limited literature and found a similar sword in the croatian book Ubojite Ojstrice by Mario Kovac, under the item number 99 on pages 69 and 114. It is a much better looking husar sword marked with crosses rather than cogs, but arranged in a similar way. The interesting fact is, that it bears also the mark of G.Lindl (according to the author) from Judenburg in Styria. Ironically, the sword returned to Styria, where apparently was produced and it is still located in Styria in an old collection (togheter with that composite kilij I put for comment recently). It is kept by a nice old Lady whos husband passed away and she is still unsure wheter keep the collection or wheter to sell it. I will post better pics when or if I have the chance to visit her.

15th January 2013, 05:55 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,559	Thank you so much Valjhun! I do not have the book you note on Croatian arms, but thank you for the support toward my Styrian assessment, also for the detail on this makers name. It is fascinating that this sword indeed returned to Styria, and I really look forward to more on this as it develops, please keep us posted! It is extremely rare to find one of these with this kind of provenance. I am sending PM. All the best, Jim