A nimcha that was not.... :-)

A.alnakkas · 17th December 2012, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Attached is a pic of the so-called Transylvanian Knot, a magical/talismanic mark on Hungarian blades XVI-XVIII centuries. There were several variants, see lower right and left.

Would love to see Syrian/Iraqi examples.

The blade inscription is very poorly done, I expect someone tried to imitate majari blades :P

Jim McDougall · 17th December 2012, 06:23 PM

Wow! Ariel,
I think you have hit on something here! at least it has revealed something to me that has been a mystery for well over thirty years! I once acquired what was listed as an 18th century Hungarian Hussars sabre from a well known and somewhat notorious dealer. It had no scabbard and a somewhat damaged pistol grip Ottoman style with narrow crossguard quillons. The blade was virtually like this one, but most importantly there were engraved banner type devices with words like those described in the 'Transylvanian knot'....something I quite honestly have not been aware of.

Years later, I had become aware this was likely not Hungarian at all, but Arabian, and probably among the array of sabres used by various Bedouin tribes over vast regional probabilities. Reading Elgood, again years after that I realized that Hungarian blades had indeed often entered Arabia and presumed that was likely the case through various Ottoman entrepots.
What was always a mystery was what in the world were the strange words with those distinct 'z's , a maker, a motto?
Eventually in a transaction with another dealer I traded this away and quite clearly for 'a song' compared to what it cost me and now, even more clearly, it was more intrinsically valuable than I thought. He had minimized the wording and devices as 'jibberish' and insignificant, completely indecipherable.

This moment in reading this I realize those blade markings are exactly what you describe as the 'Transylanian knot', and something extremely important to me with my fascination in blade markings.

With the sword you have posted, the markings are clearly 'field' type ersatz markings applied to a refurbished sword in any number of circumstances in the long working lives of these Arabian sabres. It would appear to me that the stylized beaked birdhead hilt is compellingly like this early Hungarian form, and quite possibly an example of early components with added crossguard to the original blade, maybe even the hilt. I would be inclined to think that the hilt form, although shown as 17th century probably remained traditionally used well through the 18th c. in Hungary and environs. It certainly presents tempting associations worthy of further research.

I'd like to know more on this 'Transylvanian knot' for my own purposes on blade markings, and what sort of talismanic use etc. I know it doesnt necessarily apply to this blade overall, but the link to the sabre I owned years ago seems in accord with this example.

Outstanding example and keen observations, thank you!

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 18th December 2012, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The blade inscription is very poorly done, I expect someone tried to imitate majari blades :P

I agree Lofty, it is most interesting to see that they had placed enough importance on the apparant early devices and motifs to consider duplicating them rather than applying thier own. This would suggest that Hungarian swords may have been there in trade as early as 17th century, perhaps later, but whatever the case, the prototype influences seem apparent.

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 18th December 2012, 09:36 PM

Wrong post

Jim McDougall · 18th December 2012, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Wrong post

Guess so.

ariel · 19th December 2012, 12:23 PM

Sorry for the confusion:-((

Now, the real stuff.
The Shibriya from Artzi Yarom's collection bears the engraved picture of a bird-like creature. This is eerily reminescent of the Transylvanian Knot motif.
The TK motif was very popular on Caucasian, more precisely old Circassian blades. They were mostly imitation and re-interpretations of the decorations seen on the imported Hungarian blades. Examples of real and Circassian-interpreted renditions are seen in the book of Astvatsaturyan on Caucasian weapons.

Circassians were forcibly exiled by the Russians in the 1860s. They went to the Ottoman Empire and were resettled in the Turkey proper, but mainly at the remote areas of the Ottoman Empire: Balkans, Syria, as well as what is now Israel and Jordan. The future capital of Jordan, Amman, was in fact a Shapsugh town, and there are Circassian villages in Israel - Rehaniya and Kfar Kama.
They still carry their old weapons and manufacture new ones with their ancient Circassian motives. The shibriya in Spiral's pic, - the one with niello, - has classic Circassian decorative motives, too: sparse geometric figures of bull horns.
I am wondering whether the shibriya shown here is one of those examples, and the "bird" is a remnant of the old Transylvanian Knot: Hungary to the Caucasus, to Israel, - a long and tortuous trek...
Here is a pic of Circassian men in Kfar Kama.

spiral · 19th December 2012, 01:28 PM

Intersting theory Ariel, possible as well!

If its not to much of a side track, I wonder if theres any possible historic connection to the fish symbol?

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2012, 01:46 PM

Thanks very much Ariel for elaborating on this. I wish I had Emma's book at hand, but I was not among those brought with me in the bookmobile.
I think your interpretations from her books have been one of the vital denominators here in better understanding these Caucasian weapons and thier often key influences in so many other regions.

The illustration plate from Kovac's book is most telling, and as I mentioned I had never heard of the 'Transylvanian knot'. As I understand the curious sigil type device on the left and the unidentified and presumably bird figure at bottom are elements of the 'TK'. What I am wondering is how the bird figures in, and what the term itself applies to. It seems like most talismanically applied devices or images have some sort of history or traditional origin.
I am wondering if perhaps the 'TK' term derives from the often colorful and mysterious terms used in Caucasian parlance to describe these adopted markings and symbols, such as the 'gurda', 'ters maymal' and kaldam?

Are the words or terms inscribed in the bannerlike motif in that same plate, but above the images described included collectively in the 'TK' term, or are they simply included in the plate as markings? I am wondering what these words signify, makers name or an invocation?

I know very inquisitive, but you happen to not only have these references, but the language skills and contacts pertinant in using them. I would be most grateful for your further perspective on this questions, as I mentioned the one regarding those inscribed words having been perplexing for years in my ever open cases

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 19th December 2012, 05:47 PM

Dear Jim,
AFAIK, the locals put either a single mark on their blade, or the entire panoply: eg, Gorda + something else, Gorda and "little bees" ( stars, essentially), TK and Vivat Hussar or Virgo Maria, Patrona Hungariae ( misspelled, as a rule). It was a marketing tool, not different from any other culture.

Dear Spiral,
Never seen or heard of a fish on Caucasian blades. Old Mamluk swords apparently often had a fish as a handle fitting, but that's too far away and long gone:-)

17th December 2012, 06:23 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Wow! Ariel, I think you have hit on something here! at least it has revealed something to me that has been a mystery for well over thirty years! I once acquired what was listed as an 18th century Hungarian Hussars sabre from a well known and somewhat notorious dealer. It had no scabbard and a somewhat damaged pistol grip Ottoman style with narrow crossguard quillons. The blade was virtually like this one, but most importantly there were engraved banner type devices with words like those described in the 'Transylvanian knot'....something I quite honestly have not been aware of. Years later, I had become aware this was likely not Hungarian at all, but Arabian, and probably among the array of sabres used by various Bedouin tribes over vast regional probabilities. Reading Elgood, again years after that I realized that Hungarian blades had indeed often entered Arabia and presumed that was likely the case through various Ottoman entrepots. What was always a mystery was what in the world were the strange words with those distinct 'z's , a maker, a motto? Eventually in a transaction with another dealer I traded this away and quite clearly for 'a song' compared to what it cost me and now, even more clearly, it was more intrinsically valuable than I thought. He had minimized the wording and devices as 'jibberish' and insignificant, completely indecipherable. This moment in reading this I realize those blade markings are exactly what you describe as the 'Transylanian knot', and something extremely important to me with my fascination in blade markings. With the sword you have posted, the markings are clearly 'field' type ersatz markings applied to a refurbished sword in any number of circumstances in the long working lives of these Arabian sabres. It would appear to me that the stylized beaked birdhead hilt is compellingly like this early Hungarian form, and quite possibly an example of early components with added crossguard to the original blade, maybe even the hilt. I would be inclined to think that the hilt form, although shown as 17th century probably remained traditionally used well through the 18th c. in Hungary and environs. It certainly presents tempting associations worthy of further research. I'd like to know more on this 'Transylvanian knot' for my own purposes on blade markings, and what sort of talismanic use etc. I know it doesnt necessarily apply to this blade overall, but the link to the sabre I owned years ago seems in accord with this example. Outstanding example and keen observations, thank you! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th December 2012 at 10:31 PM.

19th December 2012, 12:23 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry for the confusion:-(( Now, the real stuff. The Shibriya from Artzi Yarom's collection bears the engraved picture of a bird-like creature. This is eerily reminescent of the Transylvanian Knot motif. The TK motif was very popular on Caucasian, more precisely old Circassian blades. They were mostly imitation and re-interpretations of the decorations seen on the imported Hungarian blades. Examples of real and Circassian-interpreted renditions are seen in the book of Astvatsaturyan on Caucasian weapons. Circassians were forcibly exiled by the Russians in the 1860s. They went to the Ottoman Empire and were resettled in the Turkey proper, but mainly at the remote areas of the Ottoman Empire: Balkans, Syria, as well as what is now Israel and Jordan. The future capital of Jordan, Amman, was in fact a Shapsugh town, and there are Circassian villages in Israel - Rehaniya and Kfar Kama. They still carry their old weapons and manufacture new ones with their ancient Circassian motives. The shibriya in Spiral's pic, - the one with niello, - has classic Circassian decorative motives, too: sparse geometric figures of bull horns. I am wondering whether the shibriya shown here is one of those examples, and the "bird" is a remnant of the old Transylvanian Knot: Hungary to the Caucasus, to Israel, - a long and tortuous trek... Here is a pic of Circassian men in Kfar Kama. Attached Images

18th December 2012, 09:36 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wrong post

19th December 2012, 01:28 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Intersting theory Ariel, possible as well! If its not to much of a side track, I wonder if theres any possible historic connection to the fish symbol? Spiral

19th December 2012, 01:46 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks very much Ariel for elaborating on this. I wish I had Emma's book at hand, but I was not among those brought with me in the bookmobile. I think your interpretations from her books have been one of the vital denominators here in better understanding these Caucasian weapons and thier often key influences in so many other regions. The illustration plate from Kovac's book is most telling, and as I mentioned I had never heard of the 'Transylvanian knot'. As I understand the curious sigil type device on the left and the unidentified and presumably bird figure at bottom are elements of the 'TK'. What I am wondering is how the bird figures in, and what the term itself applies to. It seems like most talismanically applied devices or images have some sort of history or traditional origin. I am wondering if perhaps the 'TK' term derives from the often colorful and mysterious terms used in Caucasian parlance to describe these adopted markings and symbols, such as the 'gurda', 'ters maymal' and kaldam? Are the words or terms inscribed in the bannerlike motif in that same plate, but above the images described included collectively in the 'TK' term, or are they simply included in the plate as markings? I am wondering what these words signify, makers name or an invocation? I know very inquisitive, but you happen to not only have these references, but the language skills and contacts pertinant in using them. I would be most grateful for your further perspective on this questions, as I mentioned the one regarding those inscribed words having been perplexing for years in my ever open cases All the best, Jim

19th December 2012, 05:47 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dear Jim, AFAIK, the locals put either a single mark on their blade, or the entire panoply: eg, Gorda + something else, Gorda and "little bees" ( stars, essentially), TK and Vivat Hussar or Virgo Maria, Patrona Hungariae ( misspelled, as a rule). It was a marketing tool, not different from any other culture. Dear Spiral, Never seen or heard of a fish on Caucasian blades. Old Mamluk swords apparently often had a fish as a handle fitting, but that's too far away and long gone:-)