Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss.

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

barrel pics

oops, almost forgot the big WOW for the decoration.

Envy is turning to a new shade of green here

Best regards,
Willem

[mohd]

Hi Willem, got your email.
So sorry for the late reply.
I was moving to Alor Setar some 460 km north of Kuala Lumpur.
I still don't have internet access at home and I have to go to cybercafe instead.

Regarding the translation .. I can't do that because it's a diagrammatical wafaq.
And I'm not trained in that discipline.
Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman



And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic



While the third line .. have to look further because I haven't found the similar wafaq .. will take some time because without internet access at home I'm a lot slow you know

Hope this helps a little.

mohd

[kai]

Hello Mohd,

Thanks a lot for chiming in while being busy!

Regarding the translation .. I can't do that because it's a diagrammatical wafaq.

Is the round inscription from the other side of the stock also a wafaq?



Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Originally Posted by mohd

(snip)
Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman

mohd

Mohd,

Please explain how a straight line of symbols (Khatim Sulaiman) can be a wafaq ("magic square")?
Doesn't it have to be several lines, like a square or rectangle?
Or did you mean that the line with the symbols of Raja/Nabi Sulaiman (Solomon) is part of a wafaq?

Michael

[Dom]

Originally Posted by mohd

And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic

Salam Bro.
thanks for the compliment ... I will forward it to the right person
unfortunately, I will not be available, from this evening (18th Dec.) until end of the week,
we are closing our home in Cairo - Egypt, and we will travel to Paris - France,
re-opening, gardening even if it's winter, collecting the most valuable weapons (for me ) , from here and there
and your story is .... an headache in perspective,
but I've some documentation, about "talismans matter" Islamic and pre-Islamic period, in Paris, may be should be an help
best regards

à +

Dom

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by mohd

Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman



And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic



mohd

Thank you Mohd for your kind help.

If I understand it right, these are all wafaq related inscritpions, and not a word Jawi. So the piece might be Atjeh, but there is no direct link to that region. (sorry guys, in the Netherlands we know these weapons mostly from the Aceh war )

I am posting the pictures of the 2 links you gave for future reference.

Best regards,
Willem

[Rick]

Thank you Willem .
I feel a little bit better about my guess now .

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Rick

Thank you Willem .
I feel a little bit better about my guess now .

Your welcome

Still guessing on my side...
I wonder if this blunderbuss could have been decorated on the Philippines ?
Magic squares / talismanic signs etc. they are much more common in that region imho.

Best regards,
Willem

[VVV]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Your welcome

Still guessing on my side...
I wonder if this blunderbuss could have been decorated on the Philippines ?
Magic squares / talismanic signs etc. they are much more common in that region imho.

Best regards,
Willem

Willem,
I have never seen any magic squares or simiya'/abjad-letter symbolism on a Moro weapon???

Michael

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by VVV

Willem,
I have never seen any magic squares or simiya'/abjad-letter symbolism on a Moro weapon???

Michael

Hello Michael,

Yes, you are right, I was just typing before thinking.

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=magic+squares

[kai]

Hello Willem,

So the piece might be Atjeh, but there is no direct link to that region.

IMHO it's the rattan knots which heavily sway things towards Borneo; and the Banjar/Negara area sure looks like a nice fit to me.

sorry guys, in the Netherlands we know these weapons mostly from the Aceh war

Most surviving examples may well be from that war but as Maurice indicated, these were, of course, also widely used in the other conflicts throughout the archipelago, including subduing the Banjar sultanate. BTW, has anyone studied colonial blunderbusses in detail?

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Willem,

Thanks for highlighting another clue to this riddle.

Michael

[asomotif]

I am heavily leaning towards a Malay/Borneo/Banjar/Negara origin.

Problem is, now I want one too

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by kai

Most surviving examples may well be from that war but as Maurice indicated, these were, of course, also widely used in the other conflicts throughout the archipelago, including subduing the Banjar sultanate. BTW, has anyone studied colonial blunderbusses in detail?

I think it's not easy to study colonial blunderbusses. As there was a lot of import/export!
But I know these blunderbusses were manufactured in Banjarmasin and Negara. I don't know how about other regions or indonesian islands, as I digged only this deep in Borneo matters.... (maybe other collectors of other specific area's can highlight something about the use/manufacturing of blunderbusses in other area's).

The text described below I have translated from J.C.J. Smits, "Gedenkboek Bronbeek".
This text will explain why (in my eyes) it's impossible to have a good study on these colonial blunderbusses as they all look the same or have similarities as others, which were trophees taken in other regions:..........................


In times when dr. Salomon Muller visited the former Banjarmasin state (in 1836), an amount of 100 Banjarese solely were concerned with the manufacturing of distinct weapon types.
"They make rifles", he said, "pistols-, soldiers- and shotguns, damascened sabers, swords and kerisses, in one word, all types of hand weapons."
These swords were partly made of indegenous steel, and partly of European steel.
The firearms that the Banjarese used in the war of 1859-1863, consisted of "lila's" (bigger and smaller blunderbusses) and guns of different shapes, mostly pan- but also percussion rifles.
MANY OF THE WEAPONS MADE IN NEGARA WERE EXPORTED. THIS PROBABLY EXPLAINES WHY THE RIFLES CONQUERED ON SUMATRAN EASTCOAST IN 1872 HAVE THESE HUGE SIMILARITY OF THOSE CONQUERED FROM THE DAJAKS.

ALSO THE WEAPONS CONQUERED ON NIAS ARE AS GOOD AS THE SAME AS THE ONE CONQUERED FROM THE DAJAKS.


Any other views on this subject are mostly welcome!
Rg
Maurice

[Dom]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Thank you Mohd for your kind help.
... snip ...
I am posting the pictures of the 2 links you gave for future reference

from the "gift" of .. Mohd

You requested the translation of both documents
- The first, the text is too secret, to expect a translation

- The second is an array, whose writing used is an old Arabic language from Middle East,
with more information to insiders, that we are not
- Syriac names are unknown
- The names of the Earth, also
- Values ​​talismanic, ditto

- The Arabic names are strange
- The names of angels, are readable, although one or two are obscure
- The names of incense, are also interesting, although almost unknown to us

all that to say, we do not expect long explanations, that we would be bored to give you
all this is a culture talismanic that we did not had

every line have been translated, excepted for the "cabalistics signs",
you have matter for reflexions and suppositions

now the headache it's ... with you

all the best

à +

Dom

[asomotif]

Here a picture of a display at the dutch army museum showing a nice blunderbuss with dragon mouth barrel.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Here a picture of a display at the dutch army museum showing a nice blunderbuss with dragon mouth barrel.

Fantastic example, so nice !

[Maurice]

Good research Willem!

I've seen one for sale a while ago, and it was listed as blunderbuss from Aceh!
It had no ratan, but the same inlay on the barrel as this one!

If I knew what I know now thanks to you, I would have taken it at that time...
:-(