Sword for identification

Multumesc · 15th December 2012, 10:33 AM

A friend has this sword. How old is the sword and what country is it?Thank you very much.

M ELEY · 15th December 2012, 09:40 PM

Not the most revealing pic, but here it goes. First quarter 19th to mid 19th century based on the sheet guard, straight blade to me indicates cavalry (this pattern was emerging in Spain, among other countries). The pattern was finally established as the 'superior' horseman's sword in the Patton 1913 patterns during WWI (can you imagine cavalry in the modern era? Just as it became clear that this type was the best for riding down and impaling an opponent (as opposed to a slashing curved implement), the sword in warfare became obsolete. The ball pommel is a hold-out from the past century. Sheet guard swords ran into the early 20th c., but this detail on yours makes me think its earlier.
I will say that there were also some naval type swords of this pattern (Brit m1845 model, with sheet guard as well as generic 'private purchase types with sheet metal guards), but these have spear-point blades. Yours from the pic appears single-edged??

Now, let the experts come in and prove me the fool-

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2012, 10:02 PM

I agree with Mark, and also that this photo is far from adequate, we have no idea of size, blade fullering etc. any marks.
The pommel is British 18th century about 1760s-80s usually seen on the four slot cavalry horseman sword hilts (Mark you know Neumann well!)
Good analogy on the sheet steel guards also, they became in vogue in England and Austria with cavalry sabres around mid19th c. and the huge bowl guards of the Patton and the British M1908, along with Spanish versions.
Without better images I think Marks suggestion of one off type private purchase of early19th c. is most plausible pending further examination.
The single edge cavalry backsword and olive shape pommel of latter 18th century may have ended up being used in colonial circumstances.
I recall the Spanish colonial espadas with large shellguard and often straight blades that ended up being Brazilian first half 19th c. This could be an ersatz version of one of those. I have one with a late 18th century British blade, lending credence to the use of obsolete British components, known to have often been the case in this period. Most of the arms used by the Mexican army were British then.

Dmitry · 16th December 2012, 04:18 AM

Looks like a Danish m1849 naval cutlass.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2012, 06:02 AM

Oops! Mark, Dmitry got us!

Actually this does pretty well match up with the Danish naval cutlass of c.1834, noted as being introduced in 1836 to replace converted cavalry swords.
"Gamle Danske Militaer Vaben", Th. Moller, Copenhagen ,1963
p.60, #46

M ELEY · 16th December 2012, 12:13 PM

Arrr, foiled again! Thanks, Jim and Dmitry. Well, we did at least mention the possibility of naval and from the right period. Guards with the blackened sheet metal pattern were also popular from circa 1810-60's. I have a Brit private purchase type naval with a stamped "VR" gov't marking. Once again, good call Dmitry.

Multumesc · 17th December 2012, 08:49 AM

Thank you very much.

hbhansen · 12th April 2013, 10:36 PM

If it has got this stamp (Frederiksværk), it is without doubt a Danish M1849...

Best
HB

15th December 2012, 10:33 AM	#1
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 204	Sword for identification A friend has this sword. How old is the sword and what country is it?Thank you very much. Attached Images

17th December 2012, 08:49 AM	#7
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 204	Sword for identification Thank you very much.

12th April 2013, 10:36 PM	#8
hbhansen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Denmark Posts: 89	If it has got this stamp (Frederiksværk), it is without doubt a Danish M1849... Best HB Attached Images

15th December 2012, 09:40 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Not the most revealing pic, but here it goes. First quarter 19th to mid 19th century based on the sheet guard, straight blade to me indicates cavalry (this pattern was emerging in Spain, among other countries). The pattern was finally established as the 'superior' horseman's sword in the Patton 1913 patterns during WWI (can you imagine cavalry in the modern era? Just as it became clear that this type was the best for riding down and impaling an opponent (as opposed to a slashing curved implement), the sword in warfare became obsolete. The ball pommel is a hold-out from the past century. Sheet guard swords ran into the early 20th c., but this detail on yours makes me think its earlier. I will say that there were also some naval type swords of this pattern (Brit m1845 model, with sheet guard as well as generic 'private purchase types with sheet metal guards), but these have spear-point blades. Yours from the pic appears single-edged?? Now, let the experts come in and prove me the fool-

15th December 2012, 10:02 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,477	I agree with Mark, and also that this photo is far from adequate, we have no idea of size, blade fullering etc. any marks. The pommel is British 18th century about 1760s-80s usually seen on the four slot cavalry horseman sword hilts (Mark you know Neumann well!) Good analogy on the sheet steel guards also, they became in vogue in England and Austria with cavalry sabres around mid19th c. and the huge bowl guards of the Patton and the British M1908, along with Spanish versions. Without better images I think Marks suggestion of one off type private purchase of early19th c. is most plausible pending further examination. The single edge cavalry backsword and olive shape pommel of latter 18th century may have ended up being used in colonial circumstances. I recall the Spanish colonial espadas with large shellguard and often straight blades that ended up being Brazilian first half 19th c. This could be an ersatz version of one of those. I have one with a late 18th century British blade, lending credence to the use of obsolete British components, known to have often been the case in this period. Most of the arms used by the Mexican army were British then.

16th December 2012, 04:18 AM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Looks like a Danish m1849 naval cutlass.

16th December 2012, 06:02 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,477	Oops! Mark, Dmitry got us! Actually this does pretty well match up with the Danish naval cutlass of c.1834, noted as being introduced in 1836 to replace converted cavalry swords. "Gamle Danske Militaer Vaben", Th. Moller, Copenhagen ,1963 p.60, #46

16th December 2012, 12:13 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Arrr, foiled again! Thanks, Jim and Dmitry. Well, we did at least mention the possibility of naval and from the right period. Guards with the blackened sheet metal pattern were also popular from circa 1810-60's. I have a Brit private purchase type naval with a stamped "VR" gov't marking. Once again, good call Dmitry.