Square bullets

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2012, 09:04 PM

Thanks Nando!
It truly is a great and esoteric topic, and always fun exploring the 'lore' of antique arms. It seems from what I've seen on the variations of round vs. square was that the square 'hurt more' so presumably creating a more painful wound? This is what I mean by 'lore' much of which is purely nonsense. A bullet is intended to be deadly, not concerned with pain etc.

There is a great deal of these sort of fables in the stuff about the gunfighters here in the 'wild west', but unfortunately none about bullet shape I can recall. Being as far from a firearm and ballistics person as can be, I am just amazed that a square bullet can traject with that much velocity...I thought the turn in the barrel was what did that.

all the best,
Jim

fernando · 14th December 2012, 04:49 PM

Hi Jim,
The turn in the barrel (rifling) is, in a rough manner, an improver of accuracy and stability.
The bullet shape in general use in the begining of wild west was in fact round (ball). Later approaching the Civil War bullets became pointed, their dynamics further improving. In addition to that, their bases became slightly hollow, to allow them to expand and better engage the barrel rifles, this still improving accuracy and also velocity, as (here the vital trick) combustion gases would not escape through the bullet/barrel gap.
... This not meaning that the pointed bullet idea was a new invention as, apparently, Leonardo da Vinci had already thought of that.
As for bullet shape variations, a zillion of them was experimented, but the majority didn't resist tested practice, most being born dead.
Speaking of more painful versions, in a more recent period, bullets were modified in order to kill more effectively, aside from those to hurt more, but that's another story; too real to discuss in here, where we intend to maintain fantasy

kronckew · 14th December 2012, 05:04 PM

there is a 20c. main battle rifle (g3) that used a polygonal rifling system. and a well-known austrian plastic pistol manufacturer still uses it. some famous german machine guns ( ww2 vintage mg42) used a polygonal rifling system. see this linky

This Linky

Quote:

Originally Posted by this linky

A number of advantages are claimed by the supporters of polygonal rifling. These include:

Not compromising the barrel's thickness in the area of each groove as with traditional rifling.

Providing a better gas seal around the projectile as polygonal bores tend to have a slightly smaller bore area, which translates into more efficient use of the combustion gases trapped behind the bullet, slightly greater (consistency in) muzzle velocities and slightly increased accuracy.

Less bullet deformation, resulting in reduced drag on the bullet when traveling through the barrel which helps to increase muzzle velocity.

Reduced buildup of copper or lead within the barrel which results in easier maintenance characteristics.

Prolonged barrel life.

whitworth projectiles were also used in hex rifled cannons in the civil war by the confederates. 70 pounder:

12 pounder whitworth as used by the CSA

note that it was a breech loader.

projectiles:

fernando · 14th December 2012, 05:23 PM

There certainly is a lot of technologies that started in the past and kept evoluting until today.
However we all know the scope of this house: keep 'antique'

.

kisak · 14th December 2012, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

in a more recent period, bullets were modified in order to kill more effectively,

This is actually shown in a Swedish documentary series (Svenska Slag) about the Scanian War (1675-79). So it might be a reasonably old practice.

VANDOO · 15th December 2012, 02:03 AM

THERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE RIFLE AND SQUARE BULLETS IN THE J.M. DAVIS GUN MUSEUM IN CLAREMORE OKLAHOMA. THE COLLECTION IS SAID TO BE THE LARGEST PRIVATE GUN COLLECTION IN THE USA. I USED TO VISIT WITH MR. DAVIS MANY YEARS AGO AND CAN WELL BELIEVE IT WAS THE LARGEST PRIVATE GUN COLLECTION. IT COVERS QUITE A RANGE OF WEAPONS MOSTLY GUNS BUT THERE ARE A FEW EDGED WEAPONS AND MANY STONE POINTS AND ARTEFACTS AS WELL, DEFINITELY WORTH A VISIT IF ANYONE IS IN THE AREA.

fernando · 15th December 2012, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisak

This is actually shown in a Swedish documentary series (Svenska Slag) about the Scanian War (1675-79). So it might be a reasonably old practice.

You are quite right, Kisak.
Don't pay notice to my unfortunate expression. I was influenced by casern talks about the use of contemporaneous methods while i was serving in the armed forces... a period for oblivion.
As i (also) approached above, we often find that those techniques thought to be recently invented, have their roots in ancient times.

14th December 2012, 04:49 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A (n absololutely) non expert reply Hi Jim, The turn in the barrel (rifling) is, in a rough manner, an improver of accuracy and stability. The bullet shape in general use in the begining of wild west was in fact round (ball). Later approaching the Civil War bullets became pointed, their dynamics further improving. In addition to that, their bases became slightly hollow, to allow them to expand and better engage the barrel rifles, this still improving accuracy and also velocity, as (here the vital trick) combustion gases would not escape through the bullet/barrel gap. ... This not meaning that the pointed bullet idea was a new invention as, apparently, Leonardo da Vinci had already thought of that. As for bullet shape variations, a zillion of them was experimented, but the majority didn't resist tested practice, most being born dead. Speaking of more painful versions, in a more recent period, bullets were modified in order to kill more effectively, aside from those to hurt more, but that's another story; too real to discuss in here, where we intend to maintain fantasy

14th December 2012, 05:23 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	An addenda to post #7 There certainly is a lot of technologies that started in the past and kept evoluting until today. However we all know the scope of this house: keep 'antique' .

13th December 2012, 09:04 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Thanks Nando! It truly is a great and esoteric topic, and always fun exploring the 'lore' of antique arms. It seems from what I've seen on the variations of round vs. square was that the square 'hurt more' so presumably creating a more painful wound? This is what I mean by 'lore' much of which is purely nonsense. A bullet is intended to be deadly, not concerned with pain etc. There is a great deal of these sort of fables in the stuff about the gunfighters here in the 'wild west', but unfortunately none about bullet shape I can recall. Being as far from a firearm and ballistics person as can be, I am just amazed that a square bullet can traject with that much velocity...I thought the turn in the barrel was what did that. all the best, Jim

15th December 2012, 02:03 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE RIFLE AND SQUARE BULLETS IN THE J.M. DAVIS GUN MUSEUM IN CLAREMORE OKLAHOMA. THE COLLECTION IS SAID TO BE THE LARGEST PRIVATE GUN COLLECTION IN THE USA. I USED TO VISIT WITH MR. DAVIS MANY YEARS AGO AND CAN WELL BELIEVE IT WAS THE LARGEST PRIVATE GUN COLLECTION. IT COVERS QUITE A RANGE OF WEAPONS MOSTLY GUNS BUT THERE ARE A FEW EDGED WEAPONS AND MANY STONE POINTS AND ARTEFACTS AS WELL, DEFINITELY WORTH A VISIT IF ANYONE IS IN THE AREA.