Kaskara - Translation?

Iain · 8th December 2012, 03:10 PM

Hi Chris,

Great to hear your thoughts on these. Looking back on a few examples you are of course right.

The patterns seen on triple fuller or single fuller blades is different - and not the "chain" motif.

Just to illustrate - a little image from a takouba/kaskara blade (hope Wolf doesn't mind me using it

) and a flat croc kaskara I used to own.

I recall the same construction issues with a couple of knives that came with the aforementioned croc kaskara, can't recall if the kaskara itself lacked the hilt pin.

Mefidk · 8th December 2012, 03:42 PM

Thanks Iain - yes that's exactly what I was referring to - great you had the pictures to show it

Iain · 8th December 2012, 04:02 PM

Hi Chris,

Glad I could help illustrate your point. I can't recall, do you have any thuluth examples? I've only had the one mentioned above pass through my hands so sadly my experience with them is pretty lacking.

Mefidk · 8th December 2012, 10:43 PM

Iain - here's my thuluth kaskara of this type - with the chain pattern and crocodile scabbard. The writing appears to be a date 1123 (1650), something unknown followed a reference to a tomb. More than that I'm not sure. In the circles we have invocations to Allah, Mohammed and Ali, and the thuluth seems to repeat Allah & Mohammed.
Perhaps someone can figure out more?

Mefidk · 8th December 2012, 10:55 PM

Incidentally, while we are discussing kaskara and writing - I wonder what folk make of this one - pictures or writing? At one point the whole blade was decorated but now after many re-sharpenings all that remains is the pattern in the fuller extending all the way to the point - but what is it?

regihis · 8th December 2012, 11:35 PM

I have two daggers of Sudan
One of 1123 = 1711
In one these daggers the translation have references to Umm Durman = Omdurman. Omdurman founded by the Mahdi? I'snt a ancient city? How its possible?

Can my two daggers are the pair missing his sword Mefidk?

Iain · 9th December 2012, 10:27 AM

Hi Chris and Regihis,

On dates and blade inscriptions - I think these are probably references to saints or other figures, perhaps some events. However Regihis, I wouldn't take the date and the mention of the city to necessarily go together. Certainly I wouldn't interpret it as a date for the manufacture of your daggers.

On your second sword Chris - very interesting one! Reminds me a bit of this one:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=kaskara

Returning to the thuluth theme...

There are a few interesting points I've been thinking about that I thought were worth laying out.

1. In summary of what we've already discussed, it seems that there are two distinct styles of thuluth applied and that distinction seems to be in line with blade quality. It was applied to trade blades like the triple fuller Clauberg blade Wolf has kindly shared in the past. Here is another Clauberg blade from Stephen, a single fuller pattern this time.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8269

2. The stage when thuluth was applied interests me - on triple fuller blades with it, I have now seen several examples where the half moon stamps were applied AFTER the etching. This indicates to me the etching was not done in the same location as the mounts as I cannot think of another reason why the stamps would be applied after, partly obscuring some of the script.

3. Tribal attribution, I am aware of one period photo showing a good thuluth blade - it has an attribution in French to the man being from the Gâlièh tribe - the photo looks a bit staged. I cannot find anything about this group, even what part of Sudan they were/are from? Image is attached to this post.

4. If the thuluth style originated in Sennar, it is interesting to note that the forces of the Mahdi took some time and effort to capture the town. From reading Father Joseph Orthwalder's memoirs of his 10 years as a prisoner of the Mahdia we learn the Sennar was more or less ruined after the garrison fell to the Mahdist forces. As Orthwalder puts it:

"All that is left of Sennar are a few mud and sand heaps, and its very name has ceased to exist, although early in this century it was better known even than Dongola or Kordofan."

This allows for the interesting idea that perhaps the craftsmen who would have lived in Sennar then migrated to Omdurman?

I am digging through more period accounts as time allows.

All the best,

Iain

8th December 2012, 03:10 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Chris, Great to hear your thoughts on these. Looking back on a few examples you are of course right. The patterns seen on triple fuller or single fuller blades is different - and not the "chain" motif. Just to illustrate - a little image from a takouba/kaskara blade (hope Wolf doesn't mind me using it ) and a flat croc kaskara I used to own. I recall the same construction issues with a couple of knives that came with the aforementioned croc kaskara, can't recall if the kaskara itself lacked the hilt pin. Attached Images

8th December 2012, 10:43 PM	#4
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Iain - here's my thuluth kaskara of this type - with the chain pattern and crocodile scabbard. The writing appears to be a date 1123 (1650), something unknown followed a reference to a tomb. More than that I'm not sure. In the circles we have invocations to Allah, Mohammed and Ali, and the thuluth seems to repeat Allah & Mohammed. Perhaps someone can figure out more? Attached Images

8th December 2012, 10:55 PM	#5
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	and another kaskara question Incidentally, while we are discussing kaskara and writing - I wonder what folk make of this one - pictures or writing? At one point the whole blade was decorated but now after many re-sharpenings all that remains is the pattern in the fuller extending all the way to the point - but what is it? Attached Images

9th December 2012, 10:27 AM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Chris and Regihis, On dates and blade inscriptions - I think these are probably references to saints or other figures, perhaps some events. However Regihis, I wouldn't take the date and the mention of the city to necessarily go together. Certainly I wouldn't interpret it as a date for the manufacture of your daggers. On your second sword Chris - very interesting one! Reminds me a bit of this one: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=kaskara Returning to the thuluth theme... There are a few interesting points I've been thinking about that I thought were worth laying out. 1. In summary of what we've already discussed, it seems that there are two distinct styles of thuluth applied and that distinction seems to be in line with blade quality. It was applied to trade blades like the triple fuller Clauberg blade Wolf has kindly shared in the past. Here is another Clauberg blade from Stephen, a single fuller pattern this time. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8269 2. The stage when thuluth was applied interests me - on triple fuller blades with it, I have now seen several examples where the half moon stamps were applied AFTER the etching. This indicates to me the etching was not done in the same location as the mounts as I cannot think of another reason why the stamps would be applied after, partly obscuring some of the script. 3. Tribal attribution, I am aware of one period photo showing a good thuluth blade - it has an attribution in French to the man being from the Gâlièh tribe - the photo looks a bit staged. I cannot find anything about this group, even what part of Sudan they were/are from? Image is attached to this post. 4. If the thuluth style originated in Sennar, it is interesting to note that the forces of the Mahdi took some time and effort to capture the town. From reading Father Joseph Orthwalder's memoirs of his 10 years as a prisoner of the Mahdia we learn the Sennar was more or less ruined after the garrison fell to the Mahdist forces. As Orthwalder puts it: "All that is left of Sennar are a few mud and sand heaps, and its very name has ceased to exist, although early in this century it was better known even than Dongola or Kordofan." This allows for the interesting idea that perhaps the craftsmen who would have lived in Sennar then migrated to Omdurman? I am digging through more period accounts as time allows. All the best, Iain Attached Images

8th December 2012, 03:42 PM	#2
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Thanks Iain - yes that's exactly what I was referring to - great you had the pictures to show it

8th December 2012, 04:02 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Chris, Glad I could help illustrate your point. I can't recall, do you have any thuluth examples? I've only had the one mentioned above pass through my hands so sadly my experience with them is pretty lacking.

8th December 2012, 11:35 PM	#6
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	I have two daggers of Sudan One of 1123 = 1711 In one these daggers the translation have references to Umm Durman = Omdurman. Omdurman founded by the Mahdi? I'snt a ancient city? How its possible? Can my two daggers are the pair missing his sword Mefidk?