African Sword for ID and comment

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2012, 09:29 PM

glad gene and i could help brian.

Iain · 8th December 2012, 12:43 PM

I'm a bit late to the thread - but I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this piece with us.

I've seen this hilt style pop up from time to time and its always been a bit of a mystery.

The blade on this is fantastic and one of the prettiest I have seen.

Iliad · 9th December 2012, 03:24 AM

Thank you for the kind words. A little encouragement goes a long way.
Brian

kahnjar1 · 9th December 2012, 04:06 AM

Hi Brian.
Did not reply earlier as this is not my line, BUT.............. a VERY nice piece you have there. You are doing well by the look of things posted here.

I agree with you that these are an investment so long as the purchase price is sensible, BUT when Flora buys her "gift" to the value of yours, you must look upon that as an investment also.

I think you and I are luckly that we have "understanding" spouses!

Stu

Iain · 9th December 2012, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Thank you for the kind words. A little encouragement goes a long way.
Brian

Hi Brian, these are indeed an investment - although sometimes a cultural and historical one rather than purely a good idea monetarily.

The lizard is the best part of the piece you have shown here for me and really sets the piece apart from others of a similar hilt style. I think I've seen one before, but can't seem to find a picture to post.

Interesting motif as it seems to have been depicted in a similar fashion across a wide area of the Sahel - here's a lizard on a takouba scabbard of mine (Cameroon/Nigeria border region most likely) for comparison.

Cheers,

Iain

Lew · 9th December 2012, 02:16 PM

Nice find Brian

I think the hilt style is Hausa but I can't be sure. The reptile motif in the blade often comes from the Sudan around the white Nile area. I found two other smaller examples on the forum they have brass scabbards.

Jim McDougall · 9th December 2012, 07:24 PM

As I mentioned in post #3, paragraph 3, these hilts seem represented in some quite vast regional instances. I think the collectively used 'Hausa' classification may be misconstrued just as we have discussed on occasion regarding that classification as used in Briggs with the example of kaskara he has grouped in the takouba article. The Hausa, as Iain has shown on numerous occasions, were a keenly mercantile tribe and while they may have carried many of these weapons in thier wares it does not mean they necessarily used them as traditional arms.

Also as explained earlier (in #3) these swords are from Dongola (which astutely observed by Lew, is indeed in the White Nile regions, in fact on the banks) and are shown in collections and references as such, with the crocodile motif. This motif undoubtedly travelled the trans Saharan routes into Mali, where the familiar flared scabbard tip is seen on Manding sabres scabbards as well, so are another example of this westward diffusion.

Iain · 9th December 2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As I mentioned in post #3, paragraph 3, these hilts seem represented in some quite vast regional instances. I think the collectively used 'Hausa' classification may be misconstrued just as we have discussed on occasion regarding that classification as used in Briggs with the example of kaskara he has grouped in the takouba article. The Hausa, as Iain has shown on numerous occasions, were a keenly mercantile tribe and while they may have carried many of these weapons in thier wares it does not mean they necessarily used them as traditional arms.

Also as explained earlier (in #3) these swords are from Dongola (which astutely observed by Lew, is indeed in the White Nile regions, in fact on the banks) and are shown in collections and references as such, with the crocodile motif. This motif undoubtedly travelled the trans Saharan routes into Mali, where the familiar flared scabbard tip is seen on Manding sabres scabbards as well, so are another example of this westward diffusion.

Hi Jim,

If you have time I'd love to know the source for the Dongola attribution. Not that I doubt you - just curious.

I still think its a lizard - like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_monitor. But of course its a bit subjective when you have a simple reptilian shape.

As for the hilt - I see no particular reason to attach any Hausa influence to it beyond a passing resemblance to the half arch shape of Hausa arm dagger pommels. The spike and the construction I think sets these fairly far apart.

Iain

9th December 2012, 02:16 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Nice find Brian I think the hilt style is Hausa but I can't be sure. The reptile motif in the blade often comes from the Sudan around the white Nile area. I found two other smaller examples on the forum they have brass scabbards. Attached Images

6th December 2012, 09:29 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	glad gene and i could help brian.

8th December 2012, 12:43 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	I'm a bit late to the thread - but I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this piece with us. I've seen this hilt style pop up from time to time and its always been a bit of a mystery. The blade on this is fantastic and one of the prettiest I have seen.

9th December 2012, 03:24 AM	#3
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Thank you for the kind words. A little encouragement goes a long way. Brian

9th December 2012, 04:06 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Hi Brian. Did not reply earlier as this is not my line, BUT.............. a VERY nice piece you have there. You are doing well by the look of things posted here. I agree with you that these are an investment so long as the purchase price is sensible, BUT when Flora buys her "gift" to the value of yours, you must look upon that as an investment also. I think you and I are luckly that we have "understanding" spouses! Stu

9th December 2012, 07:24 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	As I mentioned in post #3, paragraph 3, these hilts seem represented in some quite vast regional instances. I think the collectively used 'Hausa' classification may be misconstrued just as we have discussed on occasion regarding that classification as used in Briggs with the example of kaskara he has grouped in the takouba article. The Hausa, as Iain has shown on numerous occasions, were a keenly mercantile tribe and while they may have carried many of these weapons in thier wares it does not mean they necessarily used them as traditional arms. Also as explained earlier (in #3) these swords are from Dongola (which astutely observed by Lew, is indeed in the White Nile regions, in fact on the banks) and are shown in collections and references as such, with the crocodile motif. This motif undoubtedly travelled the trans Saharan routes into Mali, where the familiar flared scabbard tip is seen on Manding sabres scabbards as well, so are another example of this westward diffusion.