African Three-Dagger sets

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2012, 06:20 PM

I am inclined to find dismal assessments of ethnographic weapons tossed into the 'tourist' category both discouraging and disappointing. Discouraging for the collector and disappointing in that these proclamations tend to be judgemental and poorly qualified.
It seems that these weapons are from a grouping which seems to include other Sudanese items, and it is clearly stated these are from an estate which notes these were collected in about 1920 from there. With this as a terminus post quem, it seems reasonable to consider these from between the Mahdist period and until then.

It was interesting reviewing those old threads, especially from 2005, when I had thought this thuluth acid etching, not engraving, was done at Omdurman presumably by armourers for the Mahdist forces. I have since realigned my thoughts in discovering that this type of decorative motif was associated profoundly with the Mamluks, who remained in somewhat nominal power among the Ottoman rule in Egypt. Many of them due to the strained relations there had relocated in regions in Dongola and Sennar in trade activity, particularly slaving. Here many weapons came in through Suakin and other avenues, and I believe the Mamluk style thuluth was applied to them for dispersion via trade routes. The Mamluks were routed in 1821, however thier influences remained influential it would seem.

In my opinion these weapons in circulation were undoubtedly used during the Mahdist campaigns, and heavily collected in the subsequent occupation and events through WWI , probably in degree as seen here until the 1920s.
Tribal interaction and warfare continued in rural and remote regions much as always well through the 1920s and later. There was dramatic cessation of arms production, especially swords, after the Caliphate, but daggers were still made. I believe the thuluth covered examples are among the earlier,probably late 19th c. items.

The lack of patination, as was recently pointed out to me in discussion, with these kinds of situations with items out of early collections, is to be somewhat expected in pieces that have remained static in reasonably unthreatened conditions for many years.

The early photo of Sudanese warriors with one wearing this dagger pouch around the neck is telling, and I think the idea that these are tribally significant as badges of rank or authority (as noted by David) is well placed. The use of various weapons and implements etc. seems to explain the variations such as ivory grips on haladies and the alem heavily covered in thuluth as a standard.

The other pouch with less significant, but traditional designs on the blades seems in context but not as highly placed. It is interesting to see the horned pommel which is remarkably similar to those seen on the Black Sea yataghans, which likely led to the suggestion these originated in North Africa. Plausibly, examples of the BSY entered the Ottoman and Red Sea trade from Turkish ports and perhaps influenced hilts in Sudan via Egypt.

Again, very nice examples Brian!

All the best,
Jim

regihis · 6th December 2012, 07:17 PM

I have two daggers Mahdists. If they are exposed without protection are taken completely by rust.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15063

I am sure there is a market for copies (In the swaille coast? India?) of these weapons Mahdists somewhere in Africa.

Iliad · 6th December 2012, 08:08 PM

Hi all,
As regards the date of 1920, my friend from whom I bought the daggers is now 70 years old, and has lived with these daggers (and other items) for his whole life. His father fought in the WW1 Gallipoli campaign, stayed on in the area for some years before returning home to New Zealand. (Incidentally, also served in WW2, collecting weapons from SE Asia, some of which I have and will post photos of). If he said that he acquired them in 1920, then I believe him. As regards patination, if held in a private collection for 92 years, then surely it is logical that there would be no wear and tear on them?
Jim, thank you for your support.
Best to all,
Brian

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2012, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi all,
As regards the date of 1920, my friend from whom I bought the daggers is now 70 years old, and has lived with these daggers (and other items) for his whole life. His father fought in the WW1 Gallipoli campaign, stayed on in the area for some years before returning home to New Zealand. (Incidentally, also served in WW2, collecting weapons from SE Asia, some of which I have and will post photos of). If he said that he acquired them in 1920, then I believe him. As regards patination, if held in a private collection for 92 years, then surely it is logical that there would be no wear and tear on them?
Jim, thank you for your support.
Best to all,
Brian

You bet Brian! I think the 'tourist' syndrome is a bit cavalierly thrown around with too many ethnographic weapons, and it sounds like your provenance was sound. I had seen examples very much like yours in an extremely comprehensive collection of Mahdist items which was assembled with also well provenanced items. I recall some discussions years ago claiming that crocodile hide items were also 'tourist' pieces to which I disagreed, again citing examples from these and others I had seen with good provenance.

All the best,
Jim

PS, just found this in notes,
Some of the venerable sages of arms and armour collecting had a remarkable dignity and gentlemanly grace which has noticeably diminished in todays demeanor. Claude Blair had remarked on Sir Guy Laking, "...I was told that it was said of Laking that he would always find something kind to say about a fellow collectors object".

Lew · 7th December 2012, 03:15 AM

Just to compare what I meant about patina. Below a several examples dating from the 1890s-1940s Top photo lower dagger is circa 1890-1898 from Dafur the other one is circa 1920-30s. The next one down has an Arabic inscription on the reverse side Omdurman 1898. The one with the medium brown hilt and X's on the blade is circa 1940-45. The long bladed with the finely detailed engraved blade is circa 1900-20. All were tribally used and developed a smooth rich patina.

VANDOO · 7th December 2012, 05:35 AM

HERE ARE A FEW PICTURES OF EXAMPLES OF AFRICAN 3 WEAPON SETS. THE MOST COMMON ARE THE ONES WITH 3 DAGGERS. THOSE WITH SWORD AND 2 DAGGERS OR MACE AND TWO DAGGERS ARE MORE RARE. OVER THE YEARS I HAVE SEEN MORE EXAMPLES OF THESE DAGGER SETS IN POOR SHAPE THAN IN GOOD SHAPE BUT AS MENTIONED IF COLLECTED IN GOOD SHAPE EARLY AND KEPT AND MAINTAINED WELL IN A COLLECTION THEY CAN LOOK AS GOOD AS NEW. LOOK FOR DRYED OUT OR BLEACHED OUT SKIN AS WELL AS NOTE THE SMELL IF THE SKIN OR WOOD SMELLS FRESH OR STINKY BEWARE. BUT OF COURSE IT COULD BE OIL OR WAX PRESERVITIVE AND SOME ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS CAN BE STINKY EVEN MANY YEARS LATER.

ONE MACE HAS A HEAD THAT LOOKS LIKE A POTTERY GERNADE AND IS SAID TO BE MAMALUKE AND IS 21 IN LONG.
THE 3 DAGGERS SAID TO BE 19 CENTURY SUDANESE,18.5IN. LONG, NILE CROC.
ALL ARE SUPOSSED TO BE FROM MAHADIST PERIOD.

THE HORNS ON YOUR EXAMPLE ARE LIKELY FROM THE TOMPSONS GAZELLE WHICH IS ABOUT THE RIGHT SIZE AND QUITE COMMON. THE SKIN ON THAT SCABBARD IS CROCODILE AND YOUR OTHER SET IS COVERED IN MONITIOR LIZZARD SKIN.

Iliad · 7th December 2012, 06:32 AM

Vandoo,
Thank you so much for the great photos! Absolutely marvellous!
Best,
Brian

6th December 2012, 06:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I am inclined to find dismal assessments of ethnographic weapons tossed into the 'tourist' category both discouraging and disappointing. Discouraging for the collector and disappointing in that these proclamations tend to be judgemental and poorly qualified. It seems that these weapons are from a grouping which seems to include other Sudanese items, and it is clearly stated these are from an estate which notes these were collected in about 1920 from there. With this as a terminus post quem, it seems reasonable to consider these from between the Mahdist period and until then. It was interesting reviewing those old threads, especially from 2005, when I had thought this thuluth acid etching, not engraving, was done at Omdurman presumably by armourers for the Mahdist forces. I have since realigned my thoughts in discovering that this type of decorative motif was associated profoundly with the Mamluks, who remained in somewhat nominal power among the Ottoman rule in Egypt. Many of them due to the strained relations there had relocated in regions in Dongola and Sennar in trade activity, particularly slaving. Here many weapons came in through Suakin and other avenues, and I believe the Mamluk style thuluth was applied to them for dispersion via trade routes. The Mamluks were routed in 1821, however thier influences remained influential it would seem. In my opinion these weapons in circulation were undoubtedly used during the Mahdist campaigns, and heavily collected in the subsequent occupation and events through WWI , probably in degree as seen here until the 1920s. Tribal interaction and warfare continued in rural and remote regions much as always well through the 1920s and later. There was dramatic cessation of arms production, especially swords, after the Caliphate, but daggers were still made. I believe the thuluth covered examples are among the earlier,probably late 19th c. items. The lack of patination, as was recently pointed out to me in discussion, with these kinds of situations with items out of early collections, is to be somewhat expected in pieces that have remained static in reasonably unthreatened conditions for many years. The early photo of Sudanese warriors with one wearing this dagger pouch around the neck is telling, and I think the idea that these are tribally significant as badges of rank or authority (as noted by David) is well placed. The use of various weapons and implements etc. seems to explain the variations such as ivory grips on haladies and the alem heavily covered in thuluth as a standard. The other pouch with less significant, but traditional designs on the blades seems in context but not as highly placed. It is interesting to see the horned pommel which is remarkably similar to those seen on the Black Sea yataghans, which likely led to the suggestion these originated in North Africa. Plausibly, examples of the BSY entered the Ottoman and Red Sea trade from Turkish ports and perhaps influenced hilts in Sudan via Egypt. Again, very nice examples Brian! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th December 2012 at 11:29 PM.

7th December 2012, 03:15 AM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	For Comparison Just to compare what I meant about patina. Below a several examples dating from the 1890s-1940s Top photo lower dagger is circa 1890-1898 from Dafur the other one is circa 1920-30s. The next one down has an Arabic inscription on the reverse side Omdurman 1898. The one with the medium brown hilt and X's on the blade is circa 1940-45. The long bladed with the finely detailed engraved blade is circa 1900-20. All were tribally used and developed a smooth rich patina. Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 8th December 2012 at 02:26 PM.

7th December 2012, 05:35 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE ARE A FEW PICTURES OF EXAMPLES OF AFRICAN 3 WEAPON SETS. THE MOST COMMON ARE THE ONES WITH 3 DAGGERS. THOSE WITH SWORD AND 2 DAGGERS OR MACE AND TWO DAGGERS ARE MORE RARE. OVER THE YEARS I HAVE SEEN MORE EXAMPLES OF THESE DAGGER SETS IN POOR SHAPE THAN IN GOOD SHAPE BUT AS MENTIONED IF COLLECTED IN GOOD SHAPE EARLY AND KEPT AND MAINTAINED WELL IN A COLLECTION THEY CAN LOOK AS GOOD AS NEW. LOOK FOR DRYED OUT OR BLEACHED OUT SKIN AS WELL AS NOTE THE SMELL IF THE SKIN OR WOOD SMELLS FRESH OR STINKY BEWARE. BUT OF COURSE IT COULD BE OIL OR WAX PRESERVITIVE AND SOME ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS CAN BE STINKY EVEN MANY YEARS LATER. ONE MACE HAS A HEAD THAT LOOKS LIKE A POTTERY GERNADE AND IS SAID TO BE MAMALUKE AND IS 21 IN LONG. THE 3 DAGGERS SAID TO BE 19 CENTURY SUDANESE,18.5IN. LONG, NILE CROC. ALL ARE SUPOSSED TO BE FROM MAHADIST PERIOD. THE HORNS ON YOUR EXAMPLE ARE LIKELY FROM THE TOMPSONS GAZELLE WHICH IS ABOUT THE RIGHT SIZE AND QUITE COMMON. THE SKIN ON THAT SCABBARD IS CROCODILE AND YOUR OTHER SET IS COVERED IN MONITIOR LIZZARD SKIN. Attached Images

6th December 2012, 07:17 PM	#2
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	I have two daggers Mahdists. If they are exposed without protection are taken completely by rust. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15063 I am sure there is a market for copies (In the swaille coast? India?) of these weapons Mahdists somewhere in Africa.

6th December 2012, 08:08 PM	#3
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Hi all, As regards the date of 1920, my friend from whom I bought the daggers is now 70 years old, and has lived with these daggers (and other items) for his whole life. His father fought in the WW1 Gallipoli campaign, stayed on in the area for some years before returning home to New Zealand. (Incidentally, also served in WW2, collecting weapons from SE Asia, some of which I have and will post photos of). If he said that he acquired them in 1920, then I believe him. As regards patination, if held in a private collection for 92 years, then surely it is logical that there would be no wear and tear on them? Jim, thank you for your support. Best to all, Brian

7th December 2012, 06:32 AM	#7
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Vandoo, Thank you so much for the great photos! Absolutely marvellous! Best, Brian