"Salus Vienna Tua" on sword

A Senefelder · 26th November 2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

I hope this isnt taken wrong, but for us 'old timers' these resources, Museum of Historical Arms and of course the well known Fagan catalogs were quite notorious as the origins of a number of rather fanciful classifications now over four decades ago.

Jim agreed, it was the fact that one of these appeared in both with similar attributations that lead me to to believe that there might be some validity. The catalogs were the better part of two decades apart ( one 60's, one 80's ) so the idea that perhaps one had " pirated " the descritpion from the other seemed somewhat unlikely. As I mentioned, when I put mine up for sale I had several people contact me about the ones they owned and several sent me pictures. One person who sent me pics of thiers was the all steel type, Foxbats second sword pictured. Fox's pic of the steel version worn during the reign on Pope Paul has peaked my interest as it seems some other attributation is likely.

Jim McDougall · 26th November 2012, 05:17 PM

Hi Alan,
Actually those Museum of Historical Arms catalogs remained 'in the main stream' for decades, and I can recall this being sold in vintage bookstores of rare books as recently as several years ago. The Hoffman brothers, who were in Florida, apparantly ceased business decades ago, but thier catalogs lived on as treasured resources despite the degree of erroneous identifications. Admittedly they were largely OK, but we know that others did indeed lift information from these, particularly subsequent dealers. I was buying from the Hoffmans back in the 60s, as well as Fagan, Flayderman, Denner and others. Of all of them I trusted Flayderman's material the most, with Denner running a close second.
However, as I noted, I would not use any catalog references as categoric support for my identifications in researching weapons, but only as a side note with qualifying detail.
I recall one author who had included a classification in his book on a particular weapon form using a transliterated caption from a Russian reference and an entry in a London dealers catalog from years before as support for his identification. The item was subsequently proven to be incorrectly identified, and if I recall correctly the dealer himself had noted that some of his classifications had been incorrectly noted in some of his earlier catalogs.

I once heard someone say, the thing I love most about history is how its always changing! As some historical researchers say, history is not what happened but the descriptions of what happened being written about. With this being the case, there is always new evidence being revealed, and many dealers in catalogs are not usually being deliberately deceptive, but simply using flawed or insufficiently reviewed information.

Naturally all of this is not directed to you Alan, as your knowledge on arms and armour is quite remarkable, but simply as a matter of perspective presented informationally to the reading field out there.

I agree, there is more research to be done on this intriguing sword!
What are the dimensions and other detail? It seems like a very short sword or hanger.

All the very best,
Jim

Foxbat · 26th November 2012, 05:38 PM

Well, actually, it is full-size court sword, with a 30" blade, it is 40" overall in scabbard. I believe the older one is the same in dimensions.

Andreas · 26th November 2012, 05:52 PM

That is indeed the Sas clan coat of arms on the blade, a blason shared by the Kolschitzky family, and the motto is the one that was granted to Franz Georg Kolschitzky after the siege of Vienna. The coronet is probably Austrian, and of a post-1806 form. As for the Papal Chamberlains sword, it is not necessarily from Paul VI’s papacy, as the attached text says that it was used until then, so it could be much older. It also mentions that the throat and chape are polished iron on older examples and nickel on later ones.
Regards,
Andreas

A Senefelder · 26th November 2012, 07:35 PM

Jim, Foxbat can provide actual measurments i'm sure. I haven't had mine for about 7-8 years but the dimensions are that of a smallsword in terms of blade length, hilt length ect.

I grew up on Museum of Historical arms catalogs, dad started doing business with them as you did back in the 60's and got the catalogs for decades. I think they closed up shop in the early or mid 90's if I remember right.

26th November 2012, 05:38 PM	#3
Foxbat Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 69	Well, actually, it is full-size court sword, with a 30" blade, it is 40" overall in scabbard. I believe the older one is the same in dimensions. Attached Images

26th November 2012, 05:17 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Alan, Actually those Museum of Historical Arms catalogs remained 'in the main stream' for decades, and I can recall this being sold in vintage bookstores of rare books as recently as several years ago. The Hoffman brothers, who were in Florida, apparantly ceased business decades ago, but thier catalogs lived on as treasured resources despite the degree of erroneous identifications. Admittedly they were largely OK, but we know that others did indeed lift information from these, particularly subsequent dealers. I was buying from the Hoffmans back in the 60s, as well as Fagan, Flayderman, Denner and others. Of all of them I trusted Flayderman's material the most, with Denner running a close second. However, as I noted, I would not use any catalog references as categoric support for my identifications in researching weapons, but only as a side note with qualifying detail. I recall one author who had included a classification in his book on a particular weapon form using a transliterated caption from a Russian reference and an entry in a London dealers catalog from years before as support for his identification. The item was subsequently proven to be incorrectly identified, and if I recall correctly the dealer himself had noted that some of his classifications had been incorrectly noted in some of his earlier catalogs. I once heard someone say, the thing I love most about history is how its always changing! As some historical researchers say, history is not what happened but the descriptions of what happened being written about. With this being the case, there is always new evidence being revealed, and many dealers in catalogs are not usually being deliberately deceptive, but simply using flawed or insufficiently reviewed information. Naturally all of this is not directed to you Alan, as your knowledge on arms and armour is quite remarkable, but simply as a matter of perspective presented informationally to the reading field out there. I agree, there is more research to be done on this intriguing sword! What are the dimensions and other detail? It seems like a very short sword or hanger. All the very best, Jim

26th November 2012, 05:52 PM	#4
Andreas Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ionian Islands, Greece Posts: 96	That is indeed the Sas clan coat of arms on the blade, a blason shared by the Kolschitzky family, and the motto is the one that was granted to Franz Georg Kolschitzky after the siege of Vienna. The coronet is probably Austrian, and of a post-1806 form. As for the Papal Chamberlains sword, it is not necessarily from Paul VI’s papacy, as the attached text says that it was used until then, so it could be much older. It also mentions that the throat and chape are polished iron on older examples and nickel on later ones. Regards, Andreas

26th November 2012, 07:35 PM	#5
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	Jim, Foxbat can provide actual measurments i'm sure. I haven't had mine for about 7-8 years but the dimensions are that of a smallsword in terms of blade length, hilt length ect. I grew up on Museum of Historical arms catalogs, dad started doing business with them as you did back in the 60's and got the catalogs for decades. I think they closed up shop in the early or mid 90's if I remember right.