GELAR PAMERAN KERIS NASIONAL 2012 - short review

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

the odd thing is they placed a label on each keris, identifying the dhapur, luks, materials used an pamor ... but no tangguh

Nice to see such beautiful work. It could be that they did not both with tangguh since so many of these are contemporary creations...

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Nice to see such beautiful work. It could be that they did not both with tangguh since so many of these are contemporary creations...

I agree with David that the organizers were wise and honest by not specifying the tangguh of these krisses . For instance the kris bethok putut kembar shown on the last pictures is not old IMO (sharp edges, no wear, priests carving in modern style, new pamor creation, hilt style, etc). But I also agree that many pieces are beautiful and nicely made although too precious for my taste
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

When a tangguh is nominated for something, it is very often an opinion, sometimes just about everybody will agree with the opinion, other times nobody except the person who gave the tangguh will ever have heard of it.

Some people interpret tangguh as "style", other people interpret it as "period", or "era".

I feel that possibly the organisers of this exhibition were wise to avoid offering information on tangguh. At other exhibitions I have seen very recent keris identified as "Mataram" and Majapahit" & etc.

[Battara]

Some of these pamor patterns are nice and tight - I like that!

[satsujinken]

there are couple more ... and several random pics ...
do you guys want to see it ?

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Jean

I agree with David that the organizers were wise and honest by not specifying the tangguh of these krisses . For instance the kris bethok putut kembar shown on the last pictures is not old IMO (sharp edges, no wear, priests carving in modern style, new pamor creation, hilt style, etc). But I also agree that many pieces are beautiful and nicely made although too precious for my taste
Regards

I guess so, and other stereotype, which stated that kamardikan keris is bad and lack supernatural powers, thus considered as junk blades ...

whilst I consider keris as art object and deserved to be preserved for future generations

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When a tangguh is nominated for something, it is very often an opinion, sometimes just about everybody will agree with the opinion, other times nobody except the person who gave the tangguh will ever have heard of it.

Some people interpret tangguh as "style", other people interpret it as "period", or "era".

I feel that possibly the organisers of this exhibition were wise to avoid offering information on tangguh. At other exhibitions I have seen very recent keris identified as "Mataram" and Majapahit" & etc.

I myself never bother about tangguh as I found it too confusing and even an expert here can and will still make mistakes in terms of tangguh ...

I just enjoy the blade ...

Originally Posted by David

Nice to see such beautiful work. It could be that they did not both with tangguh since so many of these are contemporary creations...

yeah, agree with that ... many are new keris, and several are oversized ones

too bad that representatives from Kalimantan (Borneo), Sulawesi and Sumatra already dismantling their exhibit during my visit ...

[A. G. Maisey]

I don't think that tangguh itself is so confusing, once we understand the indicators and the parameters that must be applied, as well as the founding logic of tangguh, it is not at all confusing, but it is very true that people are often confused by some of the opinions offered.

As I have commented previously, more than once, at the present time everybody wants to stick a tangguh on everything, and this is not at all what the system was originally designed to do.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I don't think that tangguh itself is so confusing, once we understand the indicators and the parameters that must be applied, as well as the founding logic of tangguh, it is not at all confusing, but it is very true that people are often confused by some of the opinions offered.

As I have commented previously, more than once, at the present time everybody wants to stick a tangguh on everything, and this is not at all what the system was originally designed to do.

I have seen many-many times, what we called "experts" failed to date already known old-keris

on one occasion, one "expert" from Malang is being shown 5 betok keris and he is told in the beginning of the "game" that from 5 keris presented, 2 are original and 3 are fake ... and he failed to point the original one.

I myself have already asked and shared opinions with many person and still thinks that tangguh is somewhat very difficult to discern, a person must have broad knowledge of keris type and characteristics of keris from many areas, possess enough knowledge on metallurgy, have personally handled many many many blades by himself and have direct experience from known master/s to enable himself to provide "non binding" recommendation on how old the blade is

and even then he can still made mistakes

so I came to a conclusion that to have more than 80% of success rate on determining the tangguh, we need to dedicate our lives on this subject

lastly, can we use radio carbon dating to date a keris ?? I have read several papers that this method can be used to determine age of carbon steel materials down to acceptable level of accuracy

[satsujinken]

additional pics

Keris dhapur sapokal
pamor : jala rante

[satsujinken]

Keris Bethok Sepang
(said to be old, but I doubt it )


Keris luk 7 Sempana Kinjeng
pamor : wulung (no pamor)

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

...lastly, can we use radio carbon dating to date a keris ?? I have read several papers that this method can be used to determine age of carbon steel materials down to acceptable level of accuracy

Carbon dating is a destructive process AFAIK. You would therefore need to damage your blade in order to know the date. Not really a prospect i am willing to consider with my own collection.
I must admit that i do tend to prefer antique keris to new simply because antiquities and past cultures is a strong part of what drives my collecting. I do like to know as much as is possible about my keris historical and i am always pleased when i can place pieces into at least vague eras for time frame purposes. But ultimately i am also pleased simply to be able to enjoy the keris for it's appearances as a weapon/artform. Certainly i would never damage a blade just so i could accurately date it.

[Battara]

All these new keris examples have provoked a question for me:

In 100 years how will the keris evolve? What forms will we see in the future?

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

Carbon dating is a destructive process AFAIK. You would therefore need to damage your blade in order to know the date. Not really a prospect i am willing to consider with my own collection.
I must admit that i do tend to prefer antique keris to new simply because antiquities and past cultures is a strong part of what drives my collecting. I do like to know as much as is possible about my keris historical and i am always pleased when i can place pieces into at least vague eras for time frame purposes. But ultimately i am also pleased simply to be able to enjoy the keris for it's appearances as a weapon/artform. Certainly i would never damage a blade just so i could accurately date it.

I read a bit about radio carbon dating and yes, it is a destructive in terms of small parts must be chiseled out from the blade and destroyed in the process of dating

however, the amount of materials used in this process is now less than 1 g per sample, and even small flake can be used

I am thinking about chiseling small bit of the pesi ...
but once more, the obstacle on this method is in its cost ... the cost of doing the test is around 250 - 750 USD per sample ...

perhaps some of the oldest and most valuable blade can be tested and verified on its age

on other side, this method does have its flaws ... so basically it is back to the owner of the blade itself

regarding my opinion, I would rather spend USD 250 on a nice keris or nice dinner than throw it away to check the age of just one blade

[Jean]

Thank you Satsu for the very interesting article about C14 dating of iron artefacts and I will immediately submit my 100,000$ Singosari blades to the age test