Manual del Baratero - A Review

dennee · 20th September 2005, 11:29 PM

Terrific and informative thread!

The slowness of opening and common lack of lock would certainly seem to make the navaja inferior for some purposes. But they also made them acceptable to carry. For an attacker, the slowness of the opening is less of a problem than to a defender. And, as was mentioned above, lack of a lock probably dictated more slashing.

Consider a common weapon in American slums at the end of the nineteenth century--the straight razor. Portable, concealable, useful for other purposes, not inherently illegal, no lock, no thrusting capability, but a quicker open.

Chris Evans · 21st September 2005, 05:08 AM

Hi dennee,

You are absolutely right about locks, or rather their absence on the great majority of navajas.

The straight razor was in its heyday a much favoured weapon with all kinds of people all over the word, though I suspect that its power to intimidate far exceeded its potential as a weapon. Some years ago, I remember seeing a Brazilian film, the name of which now escapes me. Actually, it was more like a musical and set in the 1940s, in which a corrupt police officer fights a ritualized duel with razors with a slum hustler with whom he was in a racket and later fell out. They used Caoperia techniques and the name of the game was to "mark" the face of the opponent . The fight choreography wasn't terribly convincing, but it gave us some idea. And by the way, the cop lost and had a neat set of little vertical scars to show for his troubles, all adroitely planted there by his opponent.

Cheers
Chris

Robert Gray · 22nd September 2005, 09:29 AM

Chris

You mentioned "Capoeria". Now isn't that a proper system of fighting, like
say the FMA and do they use knives and other weapons in Capoeria? Was this
art present in other SA countries and did it influence gaucho knife fighting?

Regards
Robert

Chris Evans · 23rd September 2005, 04:54 AM

Hi Robert,

You ask very good questions. Whilst I know relatively little of the African aspect of Brazilian culture, I will try and provide some answers:

Capoeria was the martial art of the African slaves that the Portuguese took to Brazil to work their plantations. It was a secret art into which one had to be initiated. The slaves used it as self defense against the whites. Some decades ago, little by little it came out into the open, mostly in the guise of troupes of Capoerista entertainers putting on shows of acrobatics and fight displays in public places and then passing the hat around. On weekends, in Rio and other Brazilian cities, one can see many such displays. Also, most troupes have some white members, proving that the art is no longer segregated along racial lines. I was told that in the favellas (slums) it is widely practiced, but that nowadays it is an umbrella term for any martial art. Traditionally it was taught in a quasi formal manner but these days anything goes. Kids teach other but whether one gets to join a good group or not depends on one's innate ability - Obviously, to make money from public displays, they have to be reasonably talented.

I don't know what were the fighting techniques of early Capoeria, save that it involved a lot of acrobatics and kicking. Some fifteen years ago I witnessed a display by a superb group in a Rio night club and apart from the acrobatics, which were pretty fantastic and remarkably olympic gymnastics like, the mock kick fighting was high class Tae Kwan Do sans punches! That said, around the same time, in an Argentine province's city square I witnessed a similar display by a low end troupe who were so bad that it wasn't even funny and their mock fighting was again something like beginners Karate. Quite obviously, Capoeria has absorbed a lot of foreign influences and like so many ethnic arts it isn't what it used to be.

When it comes to knives and given their prevalence in SA, including Brazil, I am absolutely sure that Capoeria has techniques for its usage. However, apart from choreographed film fights, I have not seen them demonstrated.

The big question is whether Capoeria techniques have or have not found their way into other SA countries. It is possible, especially in Uruguay. Argentina had a substantial negroid population until the end of the nineteenth century and it is conceivable that at least some of these people had a secret martial art. However, I never have seen this suggested, though many years ago the Argentinean writer Osornio, in his book Esgrima Criolla (Creole Fencing) mentions a couple of Negroes who were highly skilled with knives and one who could even disarm his opponents! We will probably never know because if such an art existed amongst the Argentinean Negroes, it would have been kept highly secret.

For those who would like to do some further reading, here is an excellent link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira

Cheers
Chris

Frank · 24th September 2005, 06:25 AM

Chris

Wow, that website claims that the cops used to cut the tendons of the caporistas!

From what you saw how efective is caporia as a fighting system?

Reagrds
Frank

Chris Evans · 25th September 2005, 03:52 AM

Hi Frank,

You question is very hard to answer meaningfully. For a start, save for broad generalities, we do not know what old Capoeira was really like and since it has come out of the closet it has absorbed all sorts of other combative influences, including boxing, Karate and its variants and on all accounts it relies heavily for its effectiveness on surprise. We must also remember that before WWII many Okinawans and Japanese migrated to Brazil and in the 1960s a lot of Koreans also found their way into the region, though most opted for Paraguay - These folks left their imprint on local fighting styles; The famous Gracie style Jiu-Jitsu coming to mind immediatley.

With that said, the effectiveness of any martial art depends disproportionately on the individual practitioner's athleticism, that is strength, speed and size, as well as muscular coordination. Things being what they are in South America, the ticket out of the slums and poverty is through soccer or boxing. Anyone who is good enough to walk the walk and not just talk, is hardly likely to waste his time with a obsolete MA when he could make good money and fame in the ring or in the stadium. In contrast, the best that any Capoeria practitioner can hope for is to become either a feared slum crim or at most a nightclub performer, perhaps an instructor at one of the schools - To put it differently, it does not offer a very attractive or rewarding career path. Still there are exceptions and in all probability a few must be very good fighters.

Cheers
Chris

Robert Gray · 4th October 2005, 06:46 AM

Chris

Throughout this thread and the other one you seem to be of the view that
there were not set techniques for knife fighting. Obviously you have given
this matter some thought. My question: In your opinion, are there or were
there any knife fighting systems that worked any better than improvisation , anywhere?

Reagrds
Robert

23rd September 2005, 04:54 AM	#4
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Robert, You ask very good questions. Whilst I know relatively little of the African aspect of Brazilian culture, I will try and provide some answers: Capoeria was the martial art of the African slaves that the Portuguese took to Brazil to work their plantations. It was a secret art into which one had to be initiated. The slaves used it as self defense against the whites. Some decades ago, little by little it came out into the open, mostly in the guise of troupes of Capoerista entertainers putting on shows of acrobatics and fight displays in public places and then passing the hat around. On weekends, in Rio and other Brazilian cities, one can see many such displays. Also, most troupes have some white members, proving that the art is no longer segregated along racial lines. I was told that in the favellas (slums) it is widely practiced, but that nowadays it is an umbrella term for any martial art. Traditionally it was taught in a quasi formal manner but these days anything goes. Kids teach other but whether one gets to join a good group or not depends on one's innate ability - Obviously, to make money from public displays, they have to be reasonably talented. I don't know what were the fighting techniques of early Capoeria, save that it involved a lot of acrobatics and kicking. Some fifteen years ago I witnessed a display by a superb group in a Rio night club and apart from the acrobatics, which were pretty fantastic and remarkably olympic gymnastics like, the mock kick fighting was high class Tae Kwan Do sans punches! That said, around the same time, in an Argentine province's city square I witnessed a similar display by a low end troupe who were so bad that it wasn't even funny and their mock fighting was again something like beginners Karate. Quite obviously, Capoeria has absorbed a lot of foreign influences and like so many ethnic arts it isn't what it used to be. When it comes to knives and given their prevalence in SA, including Brazil, I am absolutely sure that Capoeria has techniques for its usage. However, apart from choreographed film fights, I have not seen them demonstrated. The big question is whether Capoeria techniques have or have not found their way into other SA countries. It is possible, especially in Uruguay. Argentina had a substantial negroid population until the end of the nineteenth century and it is conceivable that at least some of these people had a secret martial art. However, I never have seen this suggested, though many years ago the Argentinean writer Osornio, in his book Esgrima Criolla (Creole Fencing) mentions a couple of Negroes who were highly skilled with knives and one who could even disarm his opponents! We will probably never know because if such an art existed amongst the Argentinean Negroes, it would have been kept highly secret. For those who would like to do some further reading, here is an excellent link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira Cheers Chris Last edited by Chris Evans; 23rd September 2005 at 05:31 AM.

20th September 2005, 11:29 PM	#1
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Terrific and informative thread! The slowness of opening and common lack of lock would certainly seem to make the navaja inferior for some purposes. But they also made them acceptable to carry. For an attacker, the slowness of the opening is less of a problem than to a defender. And, as was mentioned above, lack of a lock probably dictated more slashing. Consider a common weapon in American slums at the end of the nineteenth century--the straight razor. Portable, concealable, useful for other purposes, not inherently illegal, no lock, no thrusting capability, but a quicker open.

21st September 2005, 05:08 AM	#2
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi dennee, You are absolutely right about locks, or rather their absence on the great majority of navajas. The straight razor was in its heyday a much favoured weapon with all kinds of people all over the word, though I suspect that its power to intimidate far exceeded its potential as a weapon. Some years ago, I remember seeing a Brazilian film, the name of which now escapes me. Actually, it was more like a musical and set in the 1940s, in which a corrupt police officer fights a ritualized duel with razors with a slum hustler with whom he was in a racket and later fell out. They used Caoperia techniques and the name of the game was to "mark" the face of the opponent . The fight choreography wasn't terribly convincing, but it gave us some idea. And by the way, the cop lost and had a neat set of little vertical scars to show for his troubles, all adroitely planted there by his opponent. Cheers Chris

22nd September 2005, 09:29 AM	#3
Robert Gray Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 8	Chris You mentioned "Capoeria". Now isn't that a proper system of fighting, like say the FMA and do they use knives and other weapons in Capoeria? Was this art present in other SA countries and did it influence gaucho knife fighting? Regards Robert

24th September 2005, 06:25 AM	#5
Frank Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 23	Chris Wow, that website claims that the cops used to cut the tendons of the caporistas! From what you saw how efective is caporia as a fighting system? Reagrds Frank

25th September 2005, 03:52 AM	#6
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Frank, You question is very hard to answer meaningfully. For a start, save for broad generalities, we do not know what old Capoeira was really like and since it has come out of the closet it has absorbed all sorts of other combative influences, including boxing, Karate and its variants and on all accounts it relies heavily for its effectiveness on surprise. We must also remember that before WWII many Okinawans and Japanese migrated to Brazil and in the 1960s a lot of Koreans also found their way into the region, though most opted for Paraguay - These folks left their imprint on local fighting styles; The famous Gracie style Jiu-Jitsu coming to mind immediatley. With that said, the effectiveness of any martial art depends disproportionately on the individual practitioner's athleticism, that is strength, speed and size, as well as muscular coordination. Things being what they are in South America, the ticket out of the slums and poverty is through soccer or boxing. Anyone who is good enough to walk the walk and not just talk, is hardly likely to waste his time with a obsolete MA when he could make good money and fame in the ring or in the stadium. In contrast, the best that any Capoeria practitioner can hope for is to become either a feared slum crim or at most a nightclub performer, perhaps an instructor at one of the schools - To put it differently, it does not offer a very attractive or rewarding career path. Still there are exceptions and in all probability a few must be very good fighters. Cheers Chris

4th October 2005, 06:46 AM	#7
Robert Gray Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 8	Chris Throughout this thread and the other one you seem to be of the view that there were not set techniques for knife fighting. Obviously you have given this matter some thought. My question: In your opinion, are there or were there any knife fighting systems that worked any better than improvisation , anywhere? Reagrds Robert