Extremely Rare 14th to 18th Century Igniting Irons and a 16th Century Linstock

[Andi]

P. Sixl has published in his article Entwicklung und Gebrauch der Handfeuerwafen in Zeitschrift für historische Waffenkunde vol 1.8, 1897, page 201 the image below showing a gonner firing a cannon with a hot iron (Loseisen) and holding soething like a pan (Glutpfanne?) in his left hand. The illustration is obviously redrawn after an original said to be from the manuscript Cod. 3069 of the Austrian National Library in Vienna from 1411 Online.
After checking each page of the codex I was not able to find the depicted drawing and I guess the cietated manuscript is not the correct one and the image must be from an other codex.

The image and its source is very interesting for me as I guess the pan in his left hand contains glowing charcoal for heating up the hot iron hook.

Has anybody an idea from which codex this image is originally?


Edit: "Online" Link changed to a working one.

[fernando]

Hi Andi,
It sems as the online link seems 'out of order'.
Great image, that of the gonner; i would agree it certainly is charcoal in the pan.

[Andi]

Olá fernando.

Sorry! I have corrected the link in my last post to a persisting URL: http://archiv.onb.ac.at:1801/webclie...er?pid=2316748

I am also sure that this is a pan with glowing charcoal and therefore it would be very interesting for me to know the real origin of this image.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Andi

P. Sixl has published in his article ... The illustration is obviously redrawn after an original said to be from the manuscript Cod. 3069 of the Austrian National Library in Vienna from 1411 ... After checking each page of the codex I was not able to find the depicted drawing and I guess the cietated manuscript is not the correct one and the image must be from an other codex... Has anybody an idea from which codex this image is originally?
...

I have been through a number of articles in this area that i have in my hard disk but ... no luck. The only one i found was the one you mention by P.Sixl .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Andi

... as I guess the pan in his left hand contains glowing charcoal for heating up the hot iron hook.

I am not sure whether you are interested in the image plus the charcoal pan or the charcoal confirmation per se.
Just for fun, let me here post an image of a 1430 century soldier shooting his gun with the help of a hot iron, as a support illustration to the folowing (Spanish)text:

The glowing iron which served to initiate the combustion would quickly cool down and the artilleryman had to keep it hot, introducing it in a fire or in a little stove of vegetable charcoal.

This comes in a digestive book on early firearms by Vladimir Dolinek

.

[Andi]

Thanks for the interesting image. I have already seen it somewhere else here in the forum.

Primarily I am investigating for contemporary historical sources of such charcoal pans or fire vessels for heating up the hot irons, either as written form, illustrations or archaeological finds. The image seems to be a 19th century or later one and most of such "modern" illustrations are carrying slight modern interpretations.

In the "Marienburger Tresslerbuch" book of accounts of the Teutonic Order from 9th August 1409 is an entry which is probaly can serve a hint for such a fire carrying vessel:

4 scot vor 4 polfermesechen von bleche gemacht und vor 4 roren, do der bochsenschocze fuwer mag inne tragen

My rough German transcription (I am not a linguist):
4 Scot für 4 Pulvermaße aus Blech gemacht und für 4 Rohre, darinnen der Büchsenschütze Feuer mag inne Tragen

English translation:
4 Scot [currency] for 4 powder measures made from metal sheet and 4 barrels/pipes/tubes in which the handgonner may carry fire

I guess the four roren may be a small vessel either for carrying fire for the hot iron or for lighting the matchcord.


The mentioned experience that the hot irons are rapidly cooling down was also described by Ulrich Bretscher on his Black Powder Homepage but he only used a relatively thin metal rod, he probably shoud have tried a thicker metal bar with only a small tip. A friend has experimented with a forged hot iron and he also experienced that it cools down, but with improved personal experience and handling it is possible to start a handgonne. As soon as our new home page will go online we hopefully can present more details.

At present I wonder if also small handgonnes such as the Tannenberg, Danzig or Mörkö types were started by hot irons. In all historic illustrations showing hot irons absolutely certain for lighting guns, the pieces are large cannons or tiller guns.

[Matchlock]

An unusual igniting iron finely carved to convey the impression of a sea monster's head with scales, eyes and mouth, 1st half 16th century; originally protruding from that mouth was an igniting prick to enter the pan and touch hole. On an old haft.
Leaning in the center of the first photograph, against an early-16th c. sacristy cupboard, next to my earliest handgonnes, and behind my small Giech cannon of ca. 1520.

m