Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 23rd October 2012, 12:03 AM   #1
VANDERNOTTE
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 60
Default kris for comment

I hope is the right place for put the only keris of my collections on the table
tank for your comments in advance
bonsoir a tous
jacques
Attached Images
      
VANDERNOTTE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2012, 02:07 AM   #2
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,299
Default

Hey Jacques. I thought for a moment that is might indeed be the wrong place to post this when i read your title. We generally differentiate Indonesian keris (which have their own forum) from Moro kris though a difference in spelling. While i am not sure calling a Moro kris by the spelling keris is "academically" incorrect, i think you might be able to see that separating the two through spelling can help make discussion less confusing. If you don't mind i am going to change the spelling in your title to kris so that other members that are interested in Moro kris will see immediately that this is a thread to check in on.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2012, 02:19 AM   #3
VANDERNOTTE
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 60
Default kris

tank very much for that and for the lesson,I try to learn more about
regard
jacques
VANDERNOTTE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2012, 02:35 AM   #4
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Thumbs up

A VERY NICE MORO KRIS, I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE WITH SO MUCH MOTHER OF PEARL SHELL. IT IS VERY ATTRACTIVE, THE BLADE IS A NICE WATERED STEEL PATTERENED ONE. THIS KRIS IS MOST LIKELY FROM MINDINAO ISLAND NOT SURE OF WHICH MORO GROUP MADE IT. I LIKE IT WHO EVER HAD IT MADE IT MADE IT FOR SHOW AND IT SURE IS AN EYE CATCHER.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2012, 03:03 AM   #5
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
A VERY NICE MORO KRIS, I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE WITH SO MUCH MOTHER OF PEARL SHELL. IT IS VERY ATTRACTIVE, THE BLADE IS A NICE WATERED STEEL PATTERENED ONE. THIS KRIS IS MOST LIKELY FROM MINDINAO ISLAND NOT SURE OF WHICH MORO GROUP MADE IT. I LIKE IT WHO EVER HAD IT MADE IT MADE IT FOR SHOW AND IT SURE IS AN EYE CATCHER.

Barry, do you think it is possible that the dress was made at a later date. This type of mother of pearl dress didn't come about until around WWII AFAIK and this blade looks a bit older than that. Also this hilt seems to be on backwards.So while the dress seems to have been made for "show" the blade may well have been made for "business".
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2012, 03:37 AM   #6
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,715
Default

I agree David, the blade is earlier than the rest. MOP was actually used before WWII, but not earlier than the turn of the 20c. However, so much MOP is a later use. I there also agree that is maybe circa WWII MOP fittings.

Also the front of the ganga is Sulu type and the blade has a little Indonesian style to it. Still I would say Sulu region as the place of origin.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 10:54 AM   #7
Indianajones
Member
 
Indianajones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 180
Default

Hello Jacques, very nice Moro kris indeed! My first impression was also, wow so much mother of pearl! Though wanted to add that -as Barry noticed very sharply the MOP on the scabbard may be later- I think the engraved MOP pieces on the top and bottom of the scabbard are probably older as they look more yellowish from handling.

Usually the middle section -now covered with the MOP moza´k- is wounded with fine rattanstring which brakes easily when old n dried out.

I do feel its all authentically done (no restauration by a dealer or collector) at a later stadium, although they dont have the two dots of the wood pegs to attach them as the pieces on the handle. The long pieces on the handle are also attached at a this later stadium as when handling these pieces would also acquire a much yellower patine from handling.

However as this may sound a bit negative, I believe its not so bad as who wouldnt want to own this magnificent piece! The blade has a very powerfull presence! And its a wonder almost all MOPpiecses are still there.

On style and origins, I would myself not ascribe it to Sulu but more to the mainland of Mindanao >Maranao?< as the handle (geometrically) resembles a horsefoot and Sulu-pieces tend to have more the gracious cockatoo type of handle.

Enjoy the piece n regards, Indiana
Indianajones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 11:19 AM   #8
CharlesS
Member
 
CharlesS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greenville, NC
Posts: 1,513
Default

Not sure if anyone has mentioned that the blade is on the hilt backwards, and needs to be reset.
CharlesS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 04:59 PM   #9
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
Not sure if anyone has mentioned that the blade is on the hilt backwards, and needs to be reset.

Yes Charles, i did indeed already note that, and since i am taking credit for my astute observations, it was also me, not Barry, that suggested the dress was newer than the blade.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 05:47 PM   #10
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 5,984
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianajones
On style and origins, I would myself not ascribe it to Sulu but more to the mainland of Mindanao >Maranao?< as the handle (geometrically) resembles a horsefoot and Sulu-pieces tend to have more the gracious cockatoo type of handle.


Hello Wouter,

I think that Jose was relating to the blade when he stated the Sulu origin.

Regards,

Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 05:55 PM   #11
VANDERNOTTE
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 60
Default kris

bonjour everybody
charles I don't anderstand what you mint about backward ..is the hilt turned
180 degree?
one more pic
regard
Attached Images
 
VANDERNOTTE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 06:15 PM   #12
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE
bonjour everybody
charles I don't anderstand what you mint about backward ..is the hilt turned
180 degree?
one more pic
regard

Not Charles, but yes, the proper orientation for your hilt a 180║ turn. :-)
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 06:22 PM   #13
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Wouter,

I think that Jose was relating to the blade when he stated the Sulu origin.

Regards,

Detlef

I think he was as well. I would also suggest that we can be easily mislead by color (i.e. the yellowing of the MOP) in photographs, especially when they are taken by non-professionals who don't understand how to properly white balance or correct color in post production. Tungsten light, for instance, will cast a yellow hue on a photo that might not be there in reality. It also appears to me that some of the triangular pieces on the sheath stem appear just as yellow if not more than those pieces on the top sheath. I see nothing that particular points to this MOP work being done at different times.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 06:51 PM   #14
VANDOO
(deceased)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,140
Default

THE ORIENTATION OF KRIS HANDLES COMES UP OFTEN. THIS EXAMPLE AS WELL AS OTHERS WAS LIKELY MOUNTED THAT WAY WHEN THE SCABBARD AND SHIETH WAS MADE. ( I THINK THIS BECAUSE WHOEVER DID ALL THE MOP SHELL WOULD LIKELY KNOW HOW IT SHOULD BE MOUNTED AND CERTIANLY WOULD NOT WANT TO HAVE TO REMOVE THE BLADE AND REMOUNT IT ESPECIALLY AS SOME MOP WOULD LIKELY COME OFF IN THE PROCESS.
WHEN MAKEING THE HOLE FOR THE TANG ON MANY IF NOT MOST THE TANG WILL ONLY FIT EASILY ONE WAY. UNLIKE THE JAPANESE SWORD COLLECTORS PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS SELDOM REMOVE HANDLES OFF MORO WEAPONS TO LOOK FOR A SIGNATURE SO MOST ARE LEFT AS THEY ARE.
IS IT POSSIBLE KREIS HANDLES ORIENTATED IN THIS BACKWARED WAY WERE FOR LEFT HANDED WARRIORS ?

THIS TYPE OF MOP WORK AND THE DESIGNS WAS WHAT I SAW A LOT OF IN ZAMBOANGA. THEY HAVE A BIG INDUSTRY USING MOP THERE AND DO VERY GOOD WORK IN THAT AREA LOTS OF MOP JEWELRY, BRACELETS ,NECKLACES, PINS ECT.

I AGREE THE BLADE IS LIKELY AN OLD ONE WITH A LATER REDO WITH MOP. IT SEEMS WHEN A WARRIOR HAS BEEN SUCESSFUL AND HAS PROSPERED WHEN HE TURNS THE BUSINESS OVER TO HIS SONS AND REITIRES HE DRESSES UP HIS KRIS AS A SYMBOL OF HIS SUCESS AND IT BECOMES A SORT OF PUSAKA (FAMILY HEIRLOOM). WALKING AROUND WITH A KERIS LIKE THIS ONE WOULD CATCH THE EYE AND SURELY SHOW YOU WERE SOMEONE SPECIAL IN THE VILLAGE.

Last edited by VANDOO : 24th October 2012 at 07:03 PM.
VANDOO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 07:08 PM   #15
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,883
Default

Hello Jacques,

I'm with Jose: blade is Sulu - looks fairly typical to me. Jose, could you please point out what feels Indonesian to you? I'd believe the blade to be from the "Span-Am war" period or even maybe a bit earlier like last quarter of 19th c.

Scabbard as well as hilt are distinctly Sulu and obviously a later restoration/replacement/addition (pre-WW2?). The MOP on the crosspiece, endpiece, and hilt are traditionally fastened with the pegs and most likely genuine (the very uncommon MOP grip would make this sword a status piece less suitable for fighting though).

The other, unusual MOP pieces are not traditionally fastened with pegs and I guess these could be post-WW2 additions to merely up the bling factor. Jacques, can you make out how these are attached?

The usual metal strips connecting the hilt to the asang-asang also appear to missing - maybe these got damaged/lost in a cleaning attempt and the hilt happened to be put on upside down afterwards? Heating the blade will help to get the hilt off; please take a pic of the hilt hole and the blade tang and post it - thanks!

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 11:19 PM   #16
VANDERNOTTE
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 60
Default kris hilt

kai tanks for your time, imposible remouve the hilt fron the tang the wood
is too fragil over the mop
I learn a lot about kris
regard
jacques
(sorry for my ''anglais''
VANDERNOTTE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2012, 11:48 PM   #17
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
The usual metal strips connecting the hilt to the asang-asang also appear to missing - maybe these got damaged/lost in a cleaning attempt and the hilt happened to be put on upside down afterwards?

Might i suggest that these a sang-asang were never attached to this hilt. The position of the back one seems too far away and how would these be attached with the MOP anyway. Given the fragility of the MOP i can't imagine the attachment bands running up under the MOP. I believe these a sang-asang are leftover from the previous hilting as i do not believe this is the original hilt for this blade.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th October 2012, 01:45 AM   #18
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,715
Default

As I look at this again, I guess I was a little fooled by the asang-asang. They are truly done later than the blade. Their style and thinness sort of look Indonesian or Malay to me, if they were original and on a Malay or Indonesian sundang.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 10:00 AM   #19
Indianajones
Member
 
Indianajones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 180
Default

Jacques,
have a look at a pic Battara posted under the topic 'barong beauty'. The last pic he posted will show exactly your type of kris with the thin rattan lashing I meant (now gone and replaced by MOPshell) though with the engraved mop-shell pieces atop and bottom of the scabbard!
Indianajones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 03:36 PM   #20
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianajones
Jacques,
have a look at a pic Battara posted under the topic 'barong beauty'. The last pic he posted will show exactly your type of kris with the thin rattan lashing I meant (now gone and replaced by MOPshell) though with the engraved mop-shell pieces atop and bottom of the scabbard!

Well, actually it shows a similar dress form. The blades on these two kris are quite different...
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 04:25 PM   #21
Indianajones
Member
 
Indianajones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 180
Default

Okee, so the kris from Jacques and the kris from the pic would have a different place of origin David? I may know a bit but am far from an expert on this area. I understand the blade is Sulu so would also the whole kris be considered Sulu?
One can also notice the handle on the picture-kris is indeed in the opposite direction as the kris in question, as CharlesS noticed (first).
Indianajones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 09:23 PM   #22
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,883
Default

Hello Wouter,

Quote:
I understand the blade is Sulu so would also the whole kris be considered Sulu?

IMHO both kris are Sulu: blades as well as their fittings; the blade in the pic above may be younger (WW2 period?) though. (Not possible to be certain from the limited resolution.)

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 09:28 PM   #23
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,883
Default

Hello Jose,

Quote:
As I look at this again, I guess I was a little fooled by the asang-asang. They are truly done later than the blade. Their style and thinness sort of look Indonesian or Malay to me, if they were original and on a Malay or Indonesian sundang.

Yes, I forgot to comment on the asang-asang which appear to be later than the blade. It's well possible that these got replaced during on of the later restorations this kris apparently went through.

BTW, the other kris above also displays rather thin/slender asang-asang and may be from a similar period than our estimated replacement...

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 09:41 PM   #24
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,883
Default

Hello David,

Sorry for being late to respond:

Quote:
Might i suggest that these asang-asang were never attached to this hilt. The position of the back one seems too far away

Once turned, I guess that the hilt will be much more evenly situated between those 2 asang-asang.


Quote:
and how would these be attached with the MOP anyway. Given the fragility of the MOP i can't imagine the attachment bands running up under the MOP. I believe these a sang-asang are leftover from the previous hilting as i do not believe this is the original hilt for this blade.

I'd like to see more close-ups of the base of the hilt, especially interesting would be details of a removed hilt (pics taken at an angle may suffice though).

If present, those metal straps could be fastened to the hilt with pins and any small ring-like ferrule or even a tiny band of rattan might be enough to stabilize them under stress despite the (weak and brittle) MOP. OTOH, I agree that this kris in its present incarnation wasn't intended to be a personal weapon but rather something to show off status.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 09:46 PM   #25
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,883
Default

You are welcome, Jacques!

Quote:
imposible remouve the hilt fron the tang the wood
is too fragil over the mop

By carefully (and possibly repeated) heating the blade, the hilt can surely be removed without any damage. Search this forum for several detailed descriptions how to proceed.

It certainly would be worth the effort if only to turn the hilt into the correct position!

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 10:19 PM   #26
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 5,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianajones
Okee, so the kris from Jacques and the kris from the pic would have a different place of origin David?

I wasn't suggesting that at all Wouter. I was merely pointing out that these 2 kris are indeed very different in style, not "exactly" the same type and that only their dress was similar. The blade forms are completely different. Origin was not my subject of discussion here.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 10:53 PM   #27
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 5,715
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Well, actually it shows a similar dress form. The blades on these two kris are quite different...

Yes this picture is from the 1960s........
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:53 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.