crossbow of one foot, two foot and 'a tour'

[randallstorey]

Excellent, thnx for upgrading my account fernando.

Since i work primarily in latin i can usually muddle through most romance languages. Its good to see the same naming convention for these crossbows and from such an early date. If only the terms for larger engines were that standard!

If I do find a full treatment of this issue i'll post info here.

[Glaive203]

The first link describing the difference between a one foot and two foot crossbow is partially false. There was never a time one when one placed one foot on the lath and then spanned the arbalest. Laths and bows both have to be carefully tillered so that both limbs pull the same or they're inaccurate. stepping on just one limb or even in the center would tend to throw them out of tiller.

The difference between the two types is that the lighter "two foot crossbows" (AKA arbaltetes a deux pieds) was spanned with both feet stepping on the lath and ones hands spanning the arbalest, while the one foot arbalest (AKA arbalest a ettrif) had a stirrup that one placed a foot in and the crossbowman spanned it with a girdle worn around his waist with a claw suspended from it that was hooked on the string and he spanned it by handing the butt of the tiller and standing up.

The arbalest a tour was also not the springald. There's a difference between the way a modern crossbow and a medieval or ancient European were held. The traditional "crossbow" was held more like a bow, that is with the lath almost vertical rather than the later horizontal method. When was shooting from inside a tower or from and arrow loop in a merlon it was highly desirable for the lath to be as absolutely vertical as possible to so a top-tiller was added to keep the quarrels from falling off the tiller, this allowed the crossbowman a greater up and down positioning of the lath while shooting and also allowed him to not to expose any of his body to an extremely lucky shot through the arrow slit he was shooting from. Likewise the horizontal slits one sees in some arrow loops were not for "crossbows", but were actually slights for either a bowman or arbalester to use to better see.

Some useful illustrations http://picasaweb.google.com/11612624...66701183790530

http://picasaweb.google.com/11612624...66702517977874

http://picasaweb.google.com/11612624...69578950262338

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Glaive203
Thank you so much for the precious enlightening on this one foot/two foot subject
Would it be not too much, asking you to select the album pages with the illustrated examples you wish to refer and upload them directly in the thread; a more efficient way to show the images and the adviced method to keep the images in our archives, as per our forum policy .
Thank you in advance .

[wardlaw]

Glaive 123 -

thank you for your comments. I am sure you are onto somehting with the one and two foot crossbow.

I have to ask, however, where you got your infomration about the crossbows being held upright 'more like a bow'? If it is purely based upon the images you cite (and I know there are lots more with a similar depiction of the crossbow held in this manner) I wonder whether you are not misinterpreting an artist convention - a reflection of the artist struggling to depict the crossbow when, side on, the arms and quarrel disappear? I am not entirely clear what you are referring to when you talk about a 'top tiller' - I am not aware fo having seen a surviving example with one, nor can I make them out on the illustrations?

I am sure that 'à tour' means 'of the tour' and, whilst it may not be a springald, surely refers to a heavier bow.

[Glaive203]

Originally Posted by wardlaw

Glaive 123 -

thank you for your comments. I am sure you are onto somehting with the one and two foot crossbow.

I have to ask, however, where you got your infomration about the crossbows being held upright 'more like a bow'? If it is purely based upon the images you cite (and I know there are lots more with a similar depiction of the crossbow held in this manner) I wonder whether you are not misinterpreting an artist convention - a reflection of the artist struggling to depict the crossbow when, side on, the arms and quarrel disappear? I am not entirely clear what you are referring to when you talk about a 'top tiller' - I am not aware fo having seen a surviving example with one, nor can I make them out on the illustrations?

I am sure that 'à tour' means 'of the tour' and, whilst it may not be a springald, surely refers to a heavier bow.

It's not my idea that they were held more or less vertically. Crossbows switched to the horizontal method when the gun stocks and sights were applied to them. I can being a traditional archer and bowyer tell you why (or ex archer and bowyer as I've not made bows or shot them since I lived in the country and had no trouble finding 200-400 yard meadows to shoot in).

The Roman crossbow did not use the Han/Chinese nut and hook/tricker/tickler system, instead it's "trigger" was a board attached to the tiller with a peg sticking out of it. The peg went through a hole in the tiller and literally pushed the string out of a notch in the tiller which held it. This was not a very smooth release and quarrels could shatter on impact. Holding these crossbows horizontally is awkward and slightly painful when on tries to pull the tickler which can throw off ones aim, especially when aiming down. There was also the risk of splinters from a shattered quarrel flying into ones face, a risk reduced by the vertical hold, finally the lath obstructs ones vision of the target when held horizontally.

Some of these reasons remained in effect with the adoption of the Han trigger mechanism. A "top-tiller' is a small plate attached to the tiller, going straight up and then bent at a right angle again to go over the nut and hold the quarrel.

The best translation of "a tour" is "tower" in English we would say a "tower crossbow" A crossbow spanned by the girdle and hook method is already as strong as one can make them without mechanical means of spanning them which did not exist at this early period. I already knew that crossbows were originally held almost vertically, but wondered how they were shot from arrow loops, as the archer had to hold the lath really vertically, as he often was standing at an angle to the loop. Richard Rutherford Moore supplied the answer (he's a re-enactor, best known for his acting role as sergeant Harper on the Sharpe series set in the Napoleonic wars). http://www.sthubertsrangers.org/crossbows.htm

Sorry for the tardy reply.

[fernando]

Rather interesting input Glaive203 !

Originally Posted by Glaive203

... The best translation of "a tour" is "tower" in English we would say a "tower crossbow"

Well, not necessarily .
As you know, the term tour has quite a few attributions, namely journey, lathe and, for the matter, turn, as for winch.
Some (French) sources say that arbalete a tour comes from the mechanism that applies tension to the bow.

Arbalètes à tour
D'origine romaine, ce sont les engins que nous nommons couramment « catapultes ». Ils tombent dans l'oubli avec la chute de l'Empire romain. Ils sont remplacés, à partir du XIe siècle, par l'arbalète à tour ou à treuil qui tire son nom du mécanisme qui sert à bander l'arc

[Glaive203]

Originally Posted by fernando

...for the matter, turn, as for winch.
Some (French) sources say that arbalete a tour comes from the mechanism that applies tension to the bow...

Thank you for the correction, but I think it's in error. We were discussing the 13th century and neither the crannequin or windlass existed (OK the windlass existed for balistae, but not for crossbows) Therefore we should discount

.

[Glaive203]

Originally Posted by fernando

Welcome to the forum, Glaive203
Thank you so much for the precious enlightening on this one foot/two foot subject
Would it be not too much, asking you to select the album pages with the illustrated examples you wish to refer and upload them directly in the thread; a more efficient way to show the images and the adviced method to keep the images in our archives, as per our forum policy .
Thank you in advance .

Sorry sir. I have pneumonia and was sick of not replying and so just forced myself to and I made the assumption that the forum rules were standard rules.