Nom-noman Keris

kai · 20th October 2012, 11:17 PM

Hello Karttikeya,

Just my 2 cents to get the ball rolling:
This blade looks more like it was made by a Madurese bladesmith, doesn't it?

Regards,
Kai

Jean · 21st October 2012, 09:27 AM

The ganja is curved (sebit ron tal), the greneng is a bit odd and the wadidang is unusually flared, it does seem to be not a typical blade from Central Java, may be a recent piece?

Regards

Rick · 27th October 2012, 03:53 AM

And we hear no more from the O.P. ?

Opinions; refutation ?

Anything ??

A. G. Maisey · 27th October 2012, 06:50 AM

OK, here's "anything".

It does not look like either of the two Mageti keris that I have seen.

It has some similarities to the work of Djeno Harumbrodjo, but is less refined.

Might be Djeno's work on a bad day. Might be an intended copy in the style of Djeno. Might be by one of Djeno's relatives.

Doesn't look like Madura or East Jawa work, but anything is possible from that direction.

Is not the work of any Solo maker I can recognise.

Cannot be classified as Surakarta because the rondha is totally, totally wrong, the pawakan is too slim and wimpy, the blumbangan does not appear to be boto adeg.

Jean · 27th October 2012, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

OK, here's "anything".

It has some similarities to the work of Djeno Harumbrodjo, but is less refined.
Might be Djeno's work on a bad day. Might be an intended copy in the style of Djeno. Might be by one of Djeno's relatives.

I agree with Alan's opinion, however the greneng style is different from Djeno's blades which I have seen (see pages 99 & 281 in the book Keris Mahakarya Nusantara for instance). May be from the Malang connection?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 27th October 2012, 09:44 PM

Jean, it is obvious that the greneng is not attributable to Djeno, but it is not a greneng that is the "signature" of a maker, it is the ron dha. Throughout history makers have varied the greneng , but it is almost impossible for a maker to vary his ron dha, even if he wants to; he may try to cut it in a slightly different way, but if one is familiar with the work of that maker, it is possible to still have a very good idea who has cut the ron dha, even though it has been altered. It is the ron dha we need to focus on, not the greneng.

The pawakan of Jogja keris are really very different to Solo keris.

The Malang production owes its foundation to Sumenep in Madura. If you consider Malang work you're really considering Sumenep work, one pace removed. I can't see much in this keris that looks like East Jawa, but as I said, anything is possible from that direction.

Jean · 28th October 2012, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, it is obvious that the greneng is not attributable to Djeno, but it is not a greneng that is the "signature" of a maker, it is the ron dha. Throughout history makers have varied the greneng , but it is almost impossible for a maker to vary his ron dha, even if he wants to; he may try to cut it in a slightly different way, but if one is familiar with the work of that maker, it is possible to still have a very good idea who has cut the ron dha, even though it has been altered. It is the ron dha we need to focus on, not the greneng.

Hello Alan,
Thank you and sorry, I used the term greneng in a global sense (this is confusing in many books), and I actually meant the ron dha.
Would you agree that this blade is probably recent or is it not certain from the pictures?
Regards

kai · 28th October 2012, 08:22 PM

Hello Alan,

Please excuse my ignorance (I have been trying to understand things Jawa a bit better but keep stumbling over your recent comment):

Quote:

Jean, it is obvious that the greneng is not attributable to Djeno, but it is not a greneng that is the "signature" of a maker, it is the ron dha. Throughout history makers have varied the greneng , but it is almost impossible for a maker to vary his ron dha, even if he wants to; he may try to cut it in a slightly different way, but if one is familiar with the work of that maker, it is possible to still have a very good idea who has cut the ron dha, even though it has been altered. It is the ron dha we need to focus on, not the greneng.

I know that the ron dha is seen as a signature of the maker, at least for keris blades of good quality. If a seasoned maker has ingrained a certain style of ron dha, I can see that this style may still shine through minor modifications. However, IF a maker were to decide to cut a really different kind of ron dha, what would make this still identifiable (except social hormat & adat constraints not to change anything like this on a whimp)?

BTW, is it really that tough to copy a single ron dha of about any prominent empu if you really want to? While it is difficult to fake many handwritten signatures or the way a world-class painter is known to do the strokes, etc., there are still some gifted talents who craft copies that fool expert eyes. Why would be a ron dha be that much different, even given its very subtle nuances (which could still be carefully approached by repeated file work)?

I'd guess that a full series of greneng will be much tougher to copy perfectly, especially getting proportions and the "flow" of the work correctly represented. Why the paramount reliance on the ron dha except for social norms and its unique status in keris lore?

Regards,
Kai

27th October 2012, 03:53 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Two Responses And we hear no more from the O.P. ? Opinions; refutation ? Anything ??

20th October 2012, 11:17 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Karttikeya, Just my 2 cents to get the ball rolling: This blade looks more like it was made by a Madurese bladesmith, doesn't it? Regards, Kai

21st October 2012, 09:27 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The ganja is curved (sebit ron tal), the greneng is a bit odd and the wadidang is unusually flared, it does seem to be not a typical blade from Central Java, may be a recent piece? Regards

27th October 2012, 06:50 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	OK, here's "anything". It does not look like either of the two Mageti keris that I have seen. It has some similarities to the work of Djeno Harumbrodjo, but is less refined. Might be Djeno's work on a bad day. Might be an intended copy in the style of Djeno. Might be by one of Djeno's relatives. Doesn't look like Madura or East Jawa work, but anything is possible from that direction. Is not the work of any Solo maker I can recognise. Cannot be classified as Surakarta because the rondha is totally, totally wrong, the pawakan is too slim and wimpy, the blumbangan does not appear to be boto adeg.

27th October 2012, 09:44 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Jean, it is obvious that the greneng is not attributable to Djeno, but it is not a greneng that is the "signature" of a maker, it is the ron dha. Throughout history makers have varied the greneng , but it is almost impossible for a maker to vary his ron dha, even if he wants to; he may try to cut it in a slightly different way, but if one is familiar with the work of that maker, it is possible to still have a very good idea who has cut the ron dha, even though it has been altered. It is the ron dha we need to focus on, not the greneng. The pawakan of Jogja keris are really very different to Solo keris. The Malang production owes its foundation to Sumenep in Madura. If you consider Malang work you're really considering Sumenep work, one pace removed. I can't see much in this keris that looks like East Jawa, but as I said, anything is possible from that direction.