messer, kiegsmesser, grosses messer, langes messer

fernando · 12th October 2012, 05:26 PM

Your PM box is full, Jasper.

cornelistromp · 20th January 2013, 10:22 AM

recently I came across this sword, found in a canal in the Netherlands
transitional type of sword to Messer, the long handle gives plenty of counter weight and takes over the function of the pommel. The handle has the construction of a sword handle so without plates and rivets.
a great advantage above a sword of this type is that the handle offers plenty of room for two-handed techniques.
the blade is doubled edged, thin making it more of a cutting sword.
with a cross of which the bottomricassopart forms the end of the grip also seen on some Katzbalger and cinqueda swords, to date late 15th century.

broadaxe · 20th January 2013, 10:58 AM

Very strange, highly interesting! Do you have close-up photos of the hilt, and stats of the sword? I would like to see how the grip has been put together. There are circular grooves that show marks of binding cord or reinforcing ring/ferrule.

cornelistromp · 21st January 2013, 09:53 AM

the dimension unfortunately I have not measured, but best I can reproduce on experience;
griplength 20-22cm and 105-110cm allover.
the canalures of the ricassoblok are also cut in the grip, fm there are petaled flowers punched in the grip as decoration.
In the middle of the grip was still a piece of the original rope available.
The iron plate ring at the end of the grip was gone.
furthermore there is a molded pommel plate and the tang is peened.

this is the first time I have encountered a sword with this type of construction. First I thought that this was an early sword Oakeshott type XIV 1300-1320 where later in 1500, in his second/third life a new grip was added. However after inspection in hands, my opinion is that the sword has been designed this way, most probably around 1500. The blade is probably dated, next to the sun/cross are gothic digits engaved.
Iam working on it, it is not easy, Hope Michael will be back with us soon.

cornelistromp · 28th January 2013, 03:44 PM

I have the actual dimensions;
allover 108cm
blade 86cm
original cross 20cm/2cm is missing
grip 20cm
ricasso + steel part of grip 2cm

cornelistromp · 13th January 2014, 03:24 PM

www.bonhams.com/auctions/14917/lot/154/

Matchlock · 13th January 2014, 04:08 PM

Another, with a straight but shortened blade, was also sold Bonhams on Nov 30, 2011.

m

20th January 2013, 10:22 AM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	recently I came across this sword, found in a canal in the Netherlands transitional type of sword to Messer, the long handle gives plenty of counter weight and takes over the function of the pommel. The handle has the construction of a sword handle so without plates and rivets. a great advantage above a sword of this type is that the handle offers plenty of room for two-handed techniques. the blade is doubled edged, thin making it more of a cutting sword. with a cross of which the bottomricassopart forms the end of the grip also seen on some Katzbalger and cinqueda swords, to date late 15th century. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 20th January 2013 at 10:38 AM.

21st January 2013, 09:53 AM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	the dimension unfortunately I have not measured, but best I can reproduce on experience; griplength 20-22cm and 105-110cm allover. the canalures of the ricassoblok are also cut in the grip, fm there are petaled flowers punched in the grip as decoration. In the middle of the grip was still a piece of the original rope available. The iron plate ring at the end of the grip was gone. furthermore there is a molded pommel plate and the tang is peened. this is the first time I have encountered a sword with this type of construction. First I thought that this was an early sword Oakeshott type XIV 1300-1320 where later in 1500, in his second/third life a new grip was added. However after inspection in hands, my opinion is that the sword has been designed this way, most probably around 1500. The blade is probably dated, next to the sun/cross are gothic digits engaved. Iam working on it, it is not easy, Hope Michael will be back with us soon. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st January 2013 at 03:36 PM.

13th January 2014, 03:24 PM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	www.bonhams.com/auctions/14917/lot/154/ Attached Images

13th January 2014, 04:08 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Another, with a straight but shortened blade, was also sold Bonhams on Nov 30, 2011. m Attached Images

12th October 2012, 05:26 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Your PM box is full, Jasper.

20th January 2013, 10:58 AM	#3
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Very strange, highly interesting! Do you have close-up photos of the hilt, and stats of the sword? I would like to see how the grip has been put together. There are circular grooves that show marks of binding cord or reinforcing ring/ferrule.

28th January 2013, 03:44 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	I have the actual dimensions; allover 108cm blade 86cm original cross 20cm/2cm is missing grip 20cm ricasso + steel part of grip 2cm