The Falchion or Malchus, the rarest medieval sword

cornelistromp · 11th October 2012, 06:30 PM

the relationship between the falchion and the messer? well

the only thing consistent with the Falchion and Messer is that they both are single edged.
The Falchion is a sword with a pommel and cross, necessary to be a sword.
the grosses messer has no pommel and usually no cross, but a thorn or curved riveted parry plate, and of course grip plates necessary to be a messer.
swords were made by sword cutlers, and messers by a knife cutler, who were not allowed to make swords.
also in terms of geometry, they are not comparable, both the balance points and pivot points differ the maximum possible.
I believe that there is a geometric relationship in the design of these messers similar to swords, which can be tested with the excellent theory of Peter.
on the other hand you see the Falchion develop into curved single edged swords (with a pommel and cross) and cutlasses. eg dussage, storta

best,

Timo Nieminen · 11th October 2012, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Falchion and Messer [...]
in terms of geometry, they are not comparable, both the balance points and pivot points differ the maximum possible.

Do you have any numbers at hand, or suitable references? These would be very interesting to see.

J.G.Elmslie · 11th October 2012, 10:11 PM

likewise, I'd be interested in data on messer for my work on the subject, I've got my hands on only two examples so far (And have yet to even start thinking about collecting data on where in the world has examples of them for the study of them.) But what I've seen in artwork suggests that particularly for 15th C stuff that there's quite a few with fundamental similarities in design to the falchions.

the discussions I've been fortunate enough to have with Peter Johnsson have also helped me feel that its plausible that falchion and messer can (in some situations) have really rather similar blade design principles, and be differentiated by hilt construction method only.

so, any info would be most welcome.

cornelistromp · 12th October 2012, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.G.Elmslie

likewise, I'd be interested in data on messer for my work on the subject, I've got my hands on only two examples so far (And have yet to even start thinking about collecting data on where in the world has examples of them for the study of them.) But what I've seen in artwork suggests that particularly for 15th C stuff that there's quite a few with fundamental similarities in design to the falchions.

the discussions I've been fortunate enough to have with Peter Johnsson have also helped me feel that its plausible that falchion and messer can (in some situations) have really rather similar blade design principles, and be differentiated by hilt construction method only.

so, any info would be most welcome.

I have 3 Messers in my collection,

see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=messer post#1

pm me your mail adres and I will mail you the details, I can also send directly to Peter Johnsson if you want.
I'm curious how the widest point of the blade, at the second half of the blade at a Falchion, can be expressed in the old geometry "rigthteousness is quadrangular"

best,

J.G.Elmslie · 12th October 2012, 04:07 PM

Having just clicked the link and seen the photos, I just developed a strange medical condition, and turned a thorough shade of green...

you lucky, lucky bastard.

(I mean that in the best possible way, I hasten to add.

)

I'll send a PM in a moment about that.
I'm likewise rather interested to see if and how the geometry might (or might not) be found to have an association for this type of weapon too. Having seen his presentation on the subject, I'm certain it was used for some swords, but I am sceptical it was used for all. But finding the same sort of ratios in a messer would be really exciting.

11th October 2012, 06:30 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	the relationship between the falchion and the messer? well the only thing consistent with the Falchion and Messer is that they both are single edged. The Falchion is a sword with a pommel and cross, necessary to be a sword. the grosses messer has no pommel and usually no cross, but a thorn or curved riveted parry plate, and of course grip plates necessary to be a messer. swords were made by sword cutlers, and messers by a knife cutler, who were not allowed to make swords. also in terms of geometry, they are not comparable, both the balance points and pivot points differ the maximum possible. I believe that there is a geometric relationship in the design of these messers similar to swords, which can be tested with the excellent theory of Peter. on the other hand you see the Falchion develop into curved single edged swords (with a pommel and cross) and cutlasses. eg dussage, storta best, Attached Images

11th October 2012, 10:11 PM	#3
J.G.Elmslie Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Inverness & Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 17	likewise, I'd be interested in data on messer for my work on the subject, I've got my hands on only two examples so far (And have yet to even start thinking about collecting data on where in the world has examples of them for the study of them.) But what I've seen in artwork suggests that particularly for 15th C stuff that there's quite a few with fundamental similarities in design to the falchions. the discussions I've been fortunate enough to have with Peter Johnsson have also helped me feel that its plausible that falchion and messer can (in some situations) have really rather similar blade design principles, and be differentiated by hilt construction method only. so, any info would be most welcome.

12th October 2012, 04:07 PM	#5
J.G.Elmslie Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Inverness & Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 17	Having just clicked the link and seen the photos, I just developed a strange medical condition, and turned a thorough shade of green... you lucky, lucky bastard. (I mean that in the best possible way, I hasten to add. ) I'll send a PM in a moment about that. I'm likewise rather interested to see if and how the geometry might (or might not) be found to have an association for this type of weapon too. Having seen his presentation on the subject, I'm certain it was used for some swords, but I am sceptical it was used for all. But finding the same sort of ratios in a messer would be really exciting.