Oldest dated flyssa - appeal to EU/Spanish forumites

[Wodimi]

Hi Emanuel,

I just found your interesting thread about the Flyssa, it seems you have much knowledge in this field.
Have you, or any other member ever found or seen a Flyssa with such a wide blade? Length is 79 cm and at the widest point on the blade short over 5 cm. It is also not so pointed, as a Flyssa normal is, but real heavy. Could it be that it was used for a special function? I have a theory, but would like to hear first if somebody would know something.

Thanks
Wolf

[Emanuel]

Hello Wolf,

You have a very nice flyssa! I am amazed by the delicacy of the handle decoration. Those scrolls are very fine.
I have a flyssa in my collection with a very deep-bellied blade like yours, but closer to 100cm long. Unfortunately it lost the brass covering on the handle. I am not at home but as I recall it does reach about 5cm at its widest (second to last from the bottom in the attached pic).

Your example, and a number of such mid-sized flyssas that have been posted on the forum over the years, seem to be better suited to slashing. The narrower blades were possibly used in estoc by cavalry. There is no concensus on their manner or use, and the only source on the topic, "Les Sabres Kabyles" by Camille Lacoste Dujardin, related the words of a French general that had seen them used only by infantry, very often in ambush situations. Supposedly the recurved edge was particularly well suited to decapitations. This should be taken with a grain of salt I think. I don't believe in very specialized weaponry, not on the scale of use seen of flyssa. Ultimately flyssas were likely used much like straight sabre patterns, likely by cavalry, but not excluding infantry.

Another possibility regarding the narrow-wide difference may be due to sharpening. Perhaps newly forged flyssas actually had a very deep and wide belly, and were subsequently narrowed after much sharpening. A similar result is often seen on old Indian tulwars.

Regardless, these are indeed quite heavy blades, with a forward balance. My fencing knowledge is too limited to imagine the fighting style that used them.

What are your thoughts on this?

Incidentally, please see the Big Flyssa Thread for links to the old discussions on the subject. It does need some updating.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Wodimi]

Hi Emanuel,

thanks for your answer in the forum.
Unfortunately I also don't know how this weapons are once used. Once I read in a museum file used from foot soldiers and like a stabbing weapon. That makes sense to me, because of the mostly very long pointed tip.
I also don't know if the Kabyle once practiced beheading, but if so, this sword would be perfect for such a purpose. The length, the heavy weight and extreme stong blade, sharp on one side and up to 1 cm on the neck, all this points could speak for a beheading sword. Sure for close combat it would also work, but is with only 79 cm not so perfect. It could be also the reason, why you will not find so much of it.
Okay....all that only thoughts.....
Below a picture which show again the differences between a normal, a long and this heavy example.

Best wishes
Wolf

[Emanuel]

Hello Wolf (and Jim! we seem to have another flyssa enthusiast ),

You have a lovely flyssa set, they're all quite beautiful. Seeing the short one in comparison to the classic longer ones I find it quite appealing. It looks hefty and quite good as a short side-arm.

If you can read French I highly recommend this website, Algérie Ancienne it is a compendium of hundreds of contemporary French publications on Algeria spanning France's dominion over the Maghreb. It includes both ethnographic publications such as the Revue Africaine, and personal travel accounts and military reports. All documents are available for download in PDF format.

I have not yet found any clear mention of the use of flyssas but I have only read a dozen or so articles from that website.

I can send you a copy of Camille Lacoste Dujardin's article on "Sabres Kabyles" if you read French. It relates the account I mentioned in my earlier post about the beheading use of flyssas.

Best regards,
Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Hi Jim,

I've been in India now for close to a year now. Loving it! Haven't found any weapons though. They're illegal here and the police is quite serious about arms.

In regards to the flyssa, I wonder if there is some correspondence from the Spanish consul to King Ferdinand that might mention and explain the flyssa he brought back. There might be something there...and of course, the Ottoman archives might have loads of relevant information.

All the best!
Emanuel

[Wodimi]

Dear Emanuel,

thanks for your friendly words :-)
Even I don't speak French, I would be happy if you can send me a copy of Camille Lacoste Dujardin's article on "Sabres Kabyles". My friend Mauro from Italy speak French and together I'm sure we will work it out.
My email is wodimi@gmx.de .
You're right it would work effective as a short side-arm, no question.
Thanks at first and if you have time you can have a look (sure all other member too) under www.africanarms.com . I just started to build up a new page to share my passion with friends with the same virus.

Best
Wolf

[Ole S]

Hi, maybe this is coming somewhat late. Earlier in the thread you discuss the Flissa in the Real Armeria, Madrid that came as a gift in 1827.
I believe that it can be seen in the 1907 inventory by AF Calvert (“Spanish Arms and Armour Being a Historical and Descriptive Account of the Royal Armoury of Madrid. London. John Lane. The Bodley Head New York, Lohn Lane Company 1907). The Flissa has number 1604 and is shown on Plate 217 as shown in the picture.
Regards Ole