id request marking on touareg sword

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Ferguson

http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/i...hp/t63614.html Symbol looks very similar

Good Day Steve
may I bring a precision about the cross that you display
this particular cross, has an history, and signification, unfortunately, not exactly as you mentionned

your cross, it's a "Camargue" cross ...
the Camargue cross is an emblem created by the artist Hermann Paul in 1924 at the request of the Marquis Folco de Baroncelli.
the cross for faith
the anchor for hope
the heart for love
the three-pronged forks at the top not only represent tridents, but also the tool used by "manadiers" (cowboys) (manade; is as bull farm established on Rhone delta, front to Mediterranean sea) see for more details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manade

all the best

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

It is interesting that the heart topped by the cross was an early 'balemark' or 'merchants mark' used by the East India Co. with quartered heart holding initials VEIC, and later altered with the cross becoming the number 4.
The cross and orb was also a very commonly seen device on many of the blades seen in the Sudan and Saharan regions. Naturally the association is tenuous at best, but worth mentioning.

I think the suggestions regarding the French device are well placed, and of course French colonial presence would easily allow for this marking either being present in these contexts. It is tempting to consider the meaning of the acronym and this traditional French symbol being represented in this inscribed device, but puzzling why it would have been placed with such detail on a native takouba blade. It seems that the position to the side on the blade resembles that of trademarks of steel firms seen in these kinds of positions on blades from British firms and on kaskaras in Sudan. Again, not even close to conclusive but worthy of consideration.

The anchor component is interesting, but nothing that native artisans would likely copy, and why would someone in a French unit or organization be using a takouba?

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The anchor component is interesting, but nothing that native artisans would likely copy, and why would someone in a French unit or organization be using a takouba?

My line of thinking was customized tourist bring back by a French service member... Could be totally off, but that just seems the most likely to me. Memento of a tour in the region perhaps...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Iain

My line of thinking was customized tourist bring back by a French service member... Could be totally off, but that just seems the most likely to me. Memento of a tour in the region perhaps...

I missed seeing your post noting the military suggestion, and in that perspective seems quite plausible. It seems that the 'souvenier' industry in North Africa was pretty lucrative, not only in the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan post Omdurman, but naturally in the long standing French Sudan regions. We know that 'customizing' these bring back weapons was done for British troops in Egypt, Sudan and in Aden...so it makes sense that same might be done for French...now to figure what unit the acronym might represent.

All the best,
Jim

[Dom]

as some here ... like the "wonderful"
I'll use it, though ... at least ... everything is possible, only God knows

in South Algerian Sahara, among the Tuareg territories lived a time an hermit (1904-1916)
he was belong from the old French nobility, before being a monk, he was a French military officer
after twelve years spent in the wilderness of Sahara, one day a Tuareg had killed him

all this to say that, the monastic order that he had tried to create, had the same symbol;
- the cross overcoming a heart
his name; Charles Eugène de Foucauld de Pontbriand
he published under a pseudonym the first Tuareg-French dictionary.
The work of Charles de Foucauld is a reference to the knowledge of the Tuareg culture.

attention I do not necessarily connects the "Katuba" with the above, I note just some coincidences
- Place; Sahara
- Person; Touareg = takouba
- Symbol, worn by the Father eddy Sahara, the French army in these places, and what we saw on the sword

to each one to do his own scenario

à +

Dom

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Dom

as some here ... like the "wonderful"
I'll use it, though ... at least ... everything is possible, only God knows

in South Algerian Sahara, among the Tuareg territories lived a time an hermit (1904-1916)
he was belong from the old French nobility, before being a monk, he was a French military officer
after twelve years spent in the wilderness of Sahara, one day a Tuareg had killed him

all this to say that, the monastic order that he had tried to create, had the same symbol;
- the cross overcoming a heart
his name; Charles Eugène de Foucauld de Pontbriand
he published under a pseudonym the first Tuareg-French dictionary.
The work of Charles de Foucauld is a reference to the knowledge of the Tuareg culture.

attention I do not necessarily connects the "Katuba" with the above, I note just some coincidences
- Place; Sahara
- Person; Touareg = takouba
- Symbol, worn by the Father eddy Sahara, the French army in these places, and what we saw on the sword

to each one to do his own scenario

à +

Dom

Just saw your post Dom, very interesting stuff! Was he generally a well regarded and respected figure by the Tuareg? This is potentially a fascinating link to the symbol in the region.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Iain

Was he generally a well regarded and respected figure by the Tuareg?

yes for sure, otherwise, how to stay among Tuaregs during so many years
just one day, he crossed the way of an fanatic illuminated,
and has been the drama,
don't need more than one, unfortunately ...

the Tuargui society is a little bit particular
- women are unveiled, but men are ... veiled, at their puberty
- women are owner, for their lands, their flocks, and so
- men are no more than the "guards" for these assets
- it's the women who choose their husband, for wedding it's her, she made the demand ...
and the list is long ...

society very engaging, fascinating,
but now living completely out of our time
I know a little, to have attended them, during my professional life in South Sahara

à +

Dom