Bali Keris

Mick · 14th September 2005, 03:08 PM

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya. Your input to this Forum (across the board) is just what the members of this Forum are seeking. I have been placing objects up for years attempting to get people to provide real information on the topic of the Keris in the hope of getting the type of dialog that you are providing written into the pages of the Forum. We have often gotten some informants started in this direction, but have bogged down when ego problems entered into the discussions. I have to commend you for avoiding this morass so far and hope that you continue.

I wish to add my compliments to those of the other members who have thanked you for providing excellent material to the Forum from someone who actually lives within the culture which contains this icon.

nechesh · 14th September 2005, 10:08 PM

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya, another fine and informative post. I must disagree with you on one point though, the brush on method is not exclusive to the Jogjakarta court. I use this method myself in the Midwest USA.

BTW, here is a link to an old thread which gives direction to the same method, but perhaps with slightly different details: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html
One thing i have found is that it is important, at least where i live, to use only bottled distilled water during the process. Perhaps it's the floride in the tap water or other minerals or metals, but when i first tried this with tap water i got stange golden stains. I just did some blades this past weekend with distilled water and the results were pretty good. I think other things that might effect the final staining color (aside from the type of irons used in the blade) are extreme temperatures or humidity levels. I have been using As2O3 since i never knew where to get realgar in this country. It is indeed very toxic as you say, but still very safe if you use your head (i.e. keep your fingers out of your mouth

). I bought a gram a few years ago and i still have almost half that left after about four or five rounds of staining. It cost $50 back then ($25 for the gm and a $25 dangerous materials handling fee) so it's a bit more expensive that the realgar. For those interested in how to obtain some, i googled arsenic trioxide and started making calls to some big chemical companies customer service depts. They won't, of course, sell to a private citizen like myself, but i did find a company that was willing to give me the names of companies local to my area that they ARE allowed to sell to. After a bit of yellow pages research and a few more phone calls i finally found a local company that was willing to make the purchase for me. I was very up front and described the exact purpose and process that i required the arsenic for. When it arrived i when to their locale and picked it up. I know it all sound pretty complicated, but in practice it really wasn't all that difficult. It is possible that i was just lucky.

Boedhi Adhitya, you mention gold not being affected by the warangan. Are you certain this is so? I have an unstained keris that has what i am fairly sure is gold foil overlay. I would love to raise the pamor on this blade but was uncertain what effect the arsenic would have on the gold. It was suggested to me to try covering the gold with clear nail polish for the procedure. Are you saying this is not necessary, that the gold won't turn color?

Thank you for your help on this. Each time i do this process i get better and better results and i am sure that with your added tips my staining can only improve further.

Boedhi Adhitya · 15th September 2005, 06:00 AM

To thank you very much, Mick, and all forumities, for the compliment. I personally felt that this compliment should not be addressed to me, but to my elderly "gurus" and fellow keris' devotees. I'm just conveying a little bit of knowledge and experience that I thought I have, and just in thirst to learn more. I'm happy to see that my posts would "make senses" to many forumities. I would ask all the forumities though, to remind me if I'm wrong or out of the line.

Nechesh, I'm very glad that you are able to stain/etch the blade. Even in Java, only a few collectors are able to properly do it. It takes patient and a lot of practices to master. It also takes times, and time is money. But I urge any serious keris collectors to master this skill because traditionally, it is the owner himself who should maintain/clean his pusakas

My claim that brushing technique only practised in Jogja is false then. (And I'm really glad I'm false in this case

). It based mainly on my observation in Java that most, if not all, "professional etcher" use the immersion technique, simply because it's more efficient and cost effective while working on a lot of blades.

As long as I recall, gold inlay would not be affected by warangan solution. I have personally etched some kerises/spearheads with gold inlay, and it's okay. The color of gold would only came brighter

. Until today, I've not heard nor seen any gold inlay being affected/ruined by warangan from my fellow collector/etcher. Remember though, I (and many etcher I know), use undilluted Citrus aurantifolia juices (key lime, according to Wikipedia

or limau/jeruk nipis in indonesia/malay). Don't forget to cleanly peel off all the lime's skins for all processes (methak or making solution). It contains some oil which may make the blade yellowish, and thus may also ruin the solution. Use yellowish ripe limes only, not a green ones. 1kg of good, ripe limes will give approx. 1 liter juice.
Just be careful on brushing or you will peel off those gold foil. I personally use 1" paintbrush to apply the warangan. Just cut the brush a little to make it stiffer. Toothbrush would be only used on "methak" and washing-the-warangan's process. Water, indeed, play an important part. I also observed that tap water which may contain some fluoride do make the blade slightly yellowish. Well water is better for me. Distillated would be the best, but may cost me more. As long as you follow this "old recipee", I bet you are on the save side

You may buy realgar on traditional chinese's drugstore, if you manage to find one. Scientifically, arsenikum called 'Shen' in chinese. Commoners will call it 'Bi Shuang' (pee -soo-ang). Chinese traditional physician/medicine man would called it 'Hung Sin Se' for red realgar (the ones you should buy) or 'Pai Sin Se' for white (?) one. I'm not a chinese nor speak mandarin language. Just my fellow collector told me. My friends also told me that common realgar trading on traditional market in China has been banned, since some criminals used it on poisoning peoples. So, it might be a little bit harder to find, but the fact that it is still exist in Indonesia today surely suggest that it is still possible to find it. Realgar should be the first choice for etching kerises since it is much safer and, some say, gives more "live' to the blade. Just pick a good, orange-red/pink to deep purple crystal ones. Anyway, Jogjakarta court use As2O3 in their heirlooms cleansing ceremony

Thank's for the link, Nechesh. Wong Desa knew what he was talking about. It is right that you couldn't have the best appearance on the first shot, especially on a long-time abandoned and corroded blade. It takes 2-3 times. Just let 1 or 2 months in between to let the warangan "react" more, and pick the "dirt" from the keris' pores. Putting some more oils and keep it wet would also help the process. Just keep the oil away from the sheath or ivory handle or it will stain the sheath/handle.

wish may help.

purwacarita · 23rd September 2005, 04:18 PM

To say it old is one thing, Boedhi said it, because of sangling, old Balinese keris could not be like yours. But to say it beautiful is the thing because it is truly beautiful. A work of fine art, sOuo ...dynamic. W

F !! I've some pieces original from Bali, this one, I think, was made from Java. The compliments shall be to those masters from Javanese. My deep respects.

nechesh · 23rd September 2005, 05:02 PM

Something tells me you are incorrect on this one purwacarita. Everything about this keris says Balinese to me.

Rick · 23rd September 2005, 07:14 PM

Purwacarita , having made your statement I guess you will have to provide us doubters with concrete proof .
West Jawa , Bantam perhaps ?
East Jawa , Blambangan maybe ?

IMO Balinese empus were quite capable of producing this quality of work in the 17thC.

nechesh · 23rd September 2005, 08:07 PM

Just to qualify my remarks, i should say that not EVERYTHING about this keris says Bali to be. The warangan, for instance, MAY very well have been applied in Jawa and the newly commissoned sheath COULD have been made by Javanese craftmen in the style of Bali. Certainly the new uwer (mendak) MIGHT very possible be Javanese. BUT, the blade itself IMO is in all PROBABILITY Balinese.

15th September 2005, 06:00 AM	#3
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	To thank you very much, Mick, and all forumities, for the compliment. I personally felt that this compliment should not be addressed to me, but to my elderly "gurus" and fellow keris' devotees. I'm just conveying a little bit of knowledge and experience that I thought I have, and just in thirst to learn more. I'm happy to see that my posts would "make senses" to many forumities. I would ask all the forumities though, to remind me if I'm wrong or out of the line. Nechesh, I'm very glad that you are able to stain/etch the blade. Even in Java, only a few collectors are able to properly do it. It takes patient and a lot of practices to master. It also takes times, and time is money. But I urge any serious keris collectors to master this skill because traditionally, it is the owner himself who should maintain/clean his pusakas My claim that brushing technique only practised in Jogja is false then. (And I'm really glad I'm false in this case ). It based mainly on my observation in Java that most, if not all, "professional etcher" use the immersion technique, simply because it's more efficient and cost effective while working on a lot of blades. As long as I recall, gold inlay would not be affected by warangan solution. I have personally etched some kerises/spearheads with gold inlay, and it's okay. The color of gold would only came brighter . Until today, I've not heard nor seen any gold inlay being affected/ruined by warangan from my fellow collector/etcher. Remember though, I (and many etcher I know), use undilluted Citrus aurantifolia juices (key lime, according to Wikipedia or limau/jeruk nipis in indonesia/malay). Don't forget to cleanly peel off all the lime's skins for all processes (methak or making solution). It contains some oil which may make the blade yellowish, and thus may also ruin the solution. Use yellowish ripe limes only, not a green ones. 1kg of good, ripe limes will give approx. 1 liter juice. Just be careful on brushing or you will peel off those gold foil. I personally use 1" paintbrush to apply the warangan. Just cut the brush a little to make it stiffer. Toothbrush would be only used on "methak" and washing-the-warangan's process. Water, indeed, play an important part. I also observed that tap water which may contain some fluoride do make the blade slightly yellowish. Well water is better for me. Distillated would be the best, but may cost me more. As long as you follow this "old recipee", I bet you are on the save side You may buy realgar on traditional chinese's drugstore, if you manage to find one. Scientifically, arsenikum called 'Shen' in chinese. Commoners will call it 'Bi Shuang' (pee -soo-ang). Chinese traditional physician/medicine man would called it 'Hung Sin Se' for red realgar (the ones you should buy) or 'Pai Sin Se' for white (?) one. I'm not a chinese nor speak mandarin language. Just my fellow collector told me. My friends also told me that common realgar trading on traditional market in China has been banned, since some criminals used it on poisoning peoples. So, it might be a little bit harder to find, but the fact that it is still exist in Indonesia today surely suggest that it is still possible to find it. Realgar should be the first choice for etching kerises since it is much safer and, some say, gives more "live' to the blade. Just pick a good, orange-red/pink to deep purple crystal ones. Anyway, Jogjakarta court use As2O3 in their heirlooms cleansing ceremony Thank's for the link, Nechesh. Wong Desa knew what he was talking about. It is right that you couldn't have the best appearance on the first shot, especially on a long-time abandoned and corroded blade. It takes 2-3 times. Just let 1 or 2 months in between to let the warangan "react" more, and pick the "dirt" from the keris' pores. Putting some more oils and keep it wet would also help the process. Just keep the oil away from the sheath or ivory handle or it will stain the sheath/handle. wish may help. Last edited by Boedhi Adhitya; 15th September 2005 at 07:19 AM. Reason: addition

23rd September 2005, 04:18 PM	#4
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	To say it old is one thing, Boedhi said it, because of sangling, old Balinese keris could not be like yours. But to say it beautiful is the thing because it is truly beautiful. A work of fine art, sOuo ...dynamic. WF !! I've some pieces original from Bali, this one, I think, was made from Java. The compliments shall be to those masters from Javanese. My deep respects.

14th September 2005, 03:08 PM	#1
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Thank you Boedhi Adhitya. Your input to this Forum (across the board) is just what the members of this Forum are seeking. I have been placing objects up for years attempting to get people to provide real information on the topic of the Keris in the hope of getting the type of dialog that you are providing written into the pages of the Forum. We have often gotten some informants started in this direction, but have bogged down when ego problems entered into the discussions. I have to commend you for avoiding this morass so far and hope that you continue. I wish to add my compliments to those of the other members who have thanked you for providing excellent material to the Forum from someone who actually lives within the culture which contains this icon.

14th September 2005, 10:08 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thank you Boedhi Adhitya, another fine and informative post. I must disagree with you on one point though, the brush on method is not exclusive to the Jogjakarta court. I use this method myself in the Midwest USA. BTW, here is a link to an old thread which gives direction to the same method, but perhaps with slightly different details: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html One thing i have found is that it is important, at least where i live, to use only bottled distilled water during the process. Perhaps it's the floride in the tap water or other minerals or metals, but when i first tried this with tap water i got stange golden stains. I just did some blades this past weekend with distilled water and the results were pretty good. I think other things that might effect the final staining color (aside from the type of irons used in the blade) are extreme temperatures or humidity levels. I have been using As2O3 since i never knew where to get realgar in this country. It is indeed very toxic as you say, but still very safe if you use your head (i.e. keep your fingers out of your mouth ). I bought a gram a few years ago and i still have almost half that left after about four or five rounds of staining. It cost $50 back then ($25 for the gm and a $25 dangerous materials handling fee) so it's a bit more expensive that the realgar. For those interested in how to obtain some, i googled arsenic trioxide and started making calls to some big chemical companies customer service depts. They won't, of course, sell to a private citizen like myself, but i did find a company that was willing to give me the names of companies local to my area that they ARE allowed to sell to. After a bit of yellow pages research and a few more phone calls i finally found a local company that was willing to make the purchase for me. I was very up front and described the exact purpose and process that i required the arsenic for. When it arrived i when to their locale and picked it up. I know it all sound pretty complicated, but in practice it really wasn't all that difficult. It is possible that i was just lucky. Boedhi Adhitya, you mention gold not being affected by the warangan. Are you certain this is so? I have an unstained keris that has what i am fairly sure is gold foil overlay. I would love to raise the pamor on this blade but was uncertain what effect the arsenic would have on the gold. It was suggested to me to try covering the gold with clear nail polish for the procedure. Are you saying this is not necessary, that the gold won't turn color? Thank you for your help on this. Each time i do this process i get better and better results and i am sure that with your added tips my staining can only improve further.

23rd September 2005, 05:02 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Something tells me you are incorrect on this one purwacarita. Everything about this keris says Balinese to me.

23rd September 2005, 07:14 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Purwacarita , having made your statement I guess you will have to provide us doubters with concrete proof . West Jawa , Bantam perhaps ? East Jawa , Blambangan maybe ? IMO Balinese empus were quite capable of producing this quality of work in the 17thC.

23rd September 2005, 08:07 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Just to qualify my remarks, i should say that not EVERYTHING about this keris says Bali to be. The warangan, for instance, MAY very well have been applied in Jawa and the newly commissoned sheath COULD have been made by Javanese craftmen in the style of Bali. Certainly the new uwer (mendak) MIGHT very possible be Javanese. BUT, the blade itself IMO is in all PROBABILITY Balinese.