query on Jalak Budho Keris

A. G. Maisey · 19th September 2012, 10:51 PM

Gustav, there are KB's without sogokan; the sogokan came later, but before the appearance of the Modern Keris.

Gustav · 19th September 2012, 11:00 PM

Thank you, Alan, for clarifying this for me.

satsujinken · 20th September 2012, 02:53 AM

in addition

this is what I expect in singosari era keris in terms of corrosion level compared to the age (around 750 years)

this one belonged to a collector, and known as Singosari era keris

luk 5, kelengan (without pamor) - or well perhaps the pamor is destroyed due to corrosion - who knows ...
and the odd thing is the peksi / pesi is squared (not rounded) - or my eyes deceiving me

Rick · 20th September 2012, 03:44 AM

"A picture is worth a thousand words."

Whether these thousand words are the truth or not is entirely another matter .

A. G. Maisey · 20th September 2012, 03:58 AM

Donny, the vital factor in keris preservation is how it has been kept; a very old keris may not look very old.

It is believed that the reason that keris and bronze objects are found buried is that they were buried to keep them safe. In olden times Jawa was not like it is now. Cultivated areas were much less, there was a lot of forest. No proper roads, just foot tracks and an occasional bigger track. A lot of travel was by sea and river. Armed bands of bandits wandered the land and robbed the settled inhabitants. If a band of robbers was in the area people would bury their valuable goods to prevent theft. This happened in WWII and during the struggle that followed WWII also. If the people who did the burying were killed, or forgot or could not locate the buried goods, they stayed there until such time somebody chanced upon them while doing farm work or whatever.

As for the gentleman in the Malang-Singosari area, sorry Donny, you already know too much.

The blade will stain if it is ferric material, but it can only stain in accordance with the type of ferric material that it is, which will probably be greyish and without any contrast. There is the possibility that the seller does not want it cleaned and stained because once clean you might see something that he doesn't want to be seen, like gas or electric weld spots, or something else that will indicate it is not as old as he wants you to think it is. Take note of the asking price, this will be your best indicator.

satsujinken · 20th September 2012, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Donny, the vital factor in keris preservation is how it has been kept; a very old keris may not look very old.

It is believed that the reason that keris and bronze objects are found buried is that they were buried to keep them safe. In olden times Jawa was not like it is now. Cultivated areas were much less, there was a lot of forest. No proper roads, just foot tracks and an occasional bigger track. A lot of travel was by sea and river. Armed bands of bandits wandered the land and robbed the settled inhabitants. If a band of robbers was in the area people would bury their valuable goods to prevent theft. This happened in WWII and during the struggle that followed WWII also. If the people who did the burying were killed, or forgot or could not locate the buried goods, they stayed there until such time somebody chanced upon them while doing farm work or whatever.

As for the gentleman in the Malang-Singosari area, sorry Donny, you already know too much.

The blade will stain if it is ferric material, but it can only stain in accordance with the type of ferric material that it is, which will probably be greyish and without any contrast. There is the possibility that the seller does not want it cleaned and stained because once clean you might see something that he doesn't want to be seen, like gas or electric weld spots, or something else that will indicate it is not as old as he wants you to think it is. Take note of the asking price, this will be your best indicator.

thank you, for the enlightenment - really appreciate it

about the gentleman in Singosari ?? mmm ... last year if I'm not mistaken, I got an offer to re-stain and traditionally maintain (jamasan) of my collection for a price, but I decline the offer due to the price offered is too high (for me)

could be this person who made it ?? (besalen dan galeri keris 'Condro Aji' in - Jalan Tumapel 59 Singosari), if so, I am very interested to pay him a visit ...

back to topic

I will update all information regarding this one. I already sent request to the seller (which located in Malang T_T) ... for more pictures

there's chance I will be back to Malang this weekend - we'll see

A. G. Maisey · 20th September 2012, 10:28 PM

The gentleman of whom I speak is known to some dealers and only works for the trade, he does not work for the general public.

satsujinken · 21st September 2012, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The gentleman of whom I speak is known to some dealers and only works for the trade, he does not work for the general public.

I have spoken with the seller, and from the conversation, he did not know much about this blade, either .... apart from he knows that this kind of blade is old and used as "tindih" (minimizing negative aspect from other keris)

I wonder if you could share a bit of your expertise, as I planned to see the keris directly and make a bargain. What should I look at ?? typical characteristics of keris of this era, perhaps ...

I know how notice spot welding mark (I learned about it in college), and I usually bring magnification glass wherever I bought something old

basically, please help me by telling where should I look, what should be there and what should not ... and how to spot fraud from authentic one

lastly ... err ... is it OK to post the offer from the seller here ? I mean the value he asked for the blade

20th September 2012, 02:53 AM	#3
satsujinken Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surabaya - Indonesia Posts: 199	example of known singosari tangguh keris in addition this is what I expect in singosari era keris in terms of corrosion level compared to the age (around 750 years) this one belonged to a collector, and known as Singosari era keris luk 5, kelengan (without pamor) - or well perhaps the pamor is destroyed due to corrosion - who knows ... and the odd thing is the peksi / pesi is squared (not rounded) - or my eyes deceiving me Attached Images

19th September 2012, 10:51 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Gustav, there are KB's without sogokan; the sogokan came later, but before the appearance of the Modern Keris.

19th September 2012, 11:00 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Thank you, Alan, for clarifying this for me.

20th September 2012, 03:44 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	"A picture is worth a thousand words." Whether these thousand words are the truth or not is entirely another matter .

20th September 2012, 03:58 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Donny, the vital factor in keris preservation is how it has been kept; a very old keris may not look very old. It is believed that the reason that keris and bronze objects are found buried is that they were buried to keep them safe. In olden times Jawa was not like it is now. Cultivated areas were much less, there was a lot of forest. No proper roads, just foot tracks and an occasional bigger track. A lot of travel was by sea and river. Armed bands of bandits wandered the land and robbed the settled inhabitants. If a band of robbers was in the area people would bury their valuable goods to prevent theft. This happened in WWII and during the struggle that followed WWII also. If the people who did the burying were killed, or forgot or could not locate the buried goods, they stayed there until such time somebody chanced upon them while doing farm work or whatever. As for the gentleman in the Malang-Singosari area, sorry Donny, you already know too much. The blade will stain if it is ferric material, but it can only stain in accordance with the type of ferric material that it is, which will probably be greyish and without any contrast. There is the possibility that the seller does not want it cleaned and stained because once clean you might see something that he doesn't want to be seen, like gas or electric weld spots, or something else that will indicate it is not as old as he wants you to think it is. Take note of the asking price, this will be your best indicator.

20th September 2012, 10:28 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	The gentleman of whom I speak is known to some dealers and only works for the trade, he does not work for the general public.