Help identifying kaskara

Dom · 15th September 2012, 03:53 PM

Thanks for these interesting pics
unfortunately, no one Arabic letter has been determinated

I have been to have a look on Ethiopian/Nubian/Eritrean alphabet
the Ge'ez alphabet here attached (but I haven't time to analyse correctly)
has may be (?) some similitudes with the blade's inscriptions

apparently, I didn't saw a single date, even digit ??

I saw nothing, could be attributed to some talismanic practices
anyway, really amazing and gorgeous kaskara

all the best

à +

Dom

randallstorey · 16th September 2012, 08:36 PM

Thanks everybody. There does seem to be an Ethiopian tradition or preference for the double fuller as you have shown, and the lettering looks very similar in this instance including decorating within both fullers in this way.

Iain · 16th September 2012, 08:54 PM

I am pretty sure now this is at least in the Ge'ez alphabet although I do not have the knowledge to tell you what language.

I can at least make out some of these characters: (if they don't show up here try visiting wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge'ez_script)

ዘ ፈ ር

Now the real question is... can anyone figure out what language its in?

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2012, 10:42 PM

I very much agree with suggestions to the potential for Ethiopian connection to this blade, perhaps the entire sword as hilted. As has been noted by Lee, there are a number of these kinds of straight blades with double fullers mounted in San'aa which have notable Abyssinian inscriptions and markings.
This blade does not have the usual 'lion of Judah', Star of Solomon or other typically associated markings often with these kinds of motif, but the acid etched script does seem to correspond to Ge'ez or the alphabetic variations in the numerous dialects in Ethiopia.

I think that we must consider this etched application much in the way we do the heavily decorative thuluth motif on Mahdist period weapons. If I understand correctly, this is often repeated and interlaced using alphabetic characters which may have some distinct and intelligible meaning in the core of the inscription. These inscriptions were often applied by workers who were not necessarily literate, or non speakers of the language, so may have been applied in a rather artistic interpretation. I think that is why many of the thuluth inscribed weapons and items may not lend to literal translation, as many items whose motif is based on these kinds of script, and may well be the case here.

We know the kaskara was widely used outside the Sudan, into Eritrea and Ethiopia, so certainly this may be an example from these regions as well as possibly from tribal groups within any of them. As far as accomplishing a literal translation or identification of distinct alphabet, I am not sure it will be possible as this may be simply artistically applied motif based on one or a number of dialectic characters.

Iain · 17th September 2012, 09:34 AM

For some examples of other Ethiopian blades turning up in kaskara this thread may be of interest:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11390

Albeit curved blades...

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2012, 01:48 AM

Just discovered that the numbers in cartouche are probably item numbers in contract lot. Apparantly Luckhaus & Gunther numbered thier blades at the forte around 1895-1900 though not in cartouche. I found notes with a pair of Cuban machete type blades with two close numbers, otherwise identical, suggesting being of the same lot. As Solingen was producing blades for a variety of markets in these times, perhaps this suggests this practice was being used by the firms in fulfilling blade contracts. As previously noted blades of these types were being supplied to Abyssinia at this time for straight blade shotels, and these often ended up rerouted in trade entrepots, so being on a kaskara quite expectable, especially since Eritrea and Ethiopia also used them.

randallstorey · 20th September 2012, 10:19 AM

Thanks Jim, that's what I assumed the numbers indicated, and I'm fairly sure there is yet another very faint character or symbol preceding the numbers. Do we have any information on how many blades were produced per consignment? The kaskara in Stone's Glossary is also described as having a three digit number in cartouche as you put it. He thought that it indicated the Islamic year and that an AH was also stamped with the date, which supported his assertion that kaskaras often have medieval blades.

I've often wondered why he would make this assertion despite being so knowledgeable. Perhaps it was a current notion, along with the idea that medieval armaments could be purchased readily and cheaply up until the 1970s. I imagine upon inspection many of the latter would have been victorian reproductions which were handsome and were snatched up even though when they come to light now they are recognised as what they are. If so many medieval arms were kicking around a few decades ago, where did they come from and where are they now? I just don't believe that many survived.

Iain · 20th September 2012, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallstorey

I've often wondered why he would make this assertion despite being so knowledgeable. Perhaps it was a current notion, along with the idea that medieval armaments could be purchased readily and cheaply up until the 1970s. I imagine upon inspection many of the latter would have been victorian reproductions which were handsome and were snatched up even though when they come to light now they are recognised as what they are. If so many medieval arms were kicking around a few decades ago, where did they come from and where are they now? I just don't believe that many survived.

Hi Randall,

I think you are spot on that this was simply the way of thinking at the time. There was an assumption that based on the appearance of the kaskara it must be derived from Medieval swords, then the crusader notion seemed obvious and of course once you established that wondering if you had a Medieval blade got a lot easier!

Not only were many items Victorian reproductions in my understanding an awful lot of kaskara blades got mated with Medieval style hilts and sold on as the genuine article.

Returning to your particular kaskara, I think has pretty much nailed this one down. A European blade for an Ethiopian saif repurposed in kaskara mounts. Any chance of photographs of the numbers and possible symbol in the same high quality as the shots you showed of the script on the blade?

There could be a name or maker's mark stamped at the bottom of the forte near the tang but this sadly would probably be impossible to see without dismantling the hilt.

All the best,

Iain

15th September 2012, 03:53 PM	#1
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Thanks for these interesting pics unfortunately, no one Arabic letter has been determinated I have been to have a look on Ethiopian/Nubian/Eritrean alphabet the Ge'ez alphabet here attached (but I haven't time to analyse correctly) has may be (?) some similitudes with the blade's inscriptions apparently, I didn't saw a single date, even digit ?? I saw nothing, could be attributed to some talismanic practices anyway, really amazing and gorgeous kaskara all the best à + Dom Attached Images

16th September 2012, 08:36 PM	#2
randallstorey Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 15	Thanks everybody. There does seem to be an Ethiopian tradition or preference for the double fuller as you have shown, and the lettering looks very similar in this instance including decorating within both fullers in this way.

16th September 2012, 08:54 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	I am pretty sure now this is at least in the Ge'ez alphabet although I do not have the knowledge to tell you what language. I can at least make out some of these characters: (if they don't show up here try visiting wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ge'ez_script) ዘ ፈ ር Now the real question is... can anyone figure out what language its in?

16th September 2012, 10:42 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	I very much agree with suggestions to the potential for Ethiopian connection to this blade, perhaps the entire sword as hilted. As has been noted by Lee, there are a number of these kinds of straight blades with double fullers mounted in San'aa which have notable Abyssinian inscriptions and markings. This blade does not have the usual 'lion of Judah', Star of Solomon or other typically associated markings often with these kinds of motif, but the acid etched script does seem to correspond to Ge'ez or the alphabetic variations in the numerous dialects in Ethiopia. I think that we must consider this etched application much in the way we do the heavily decorative thuluth motif on Mahdist period weapons. If I understand correctly, this is often repeated and interlaced using alphabetic characters which may have some distinct and intelligible meaning in the core of the inscription. These inscriptions were often applied by workers who were not necessarily literate, or non speakers of the language, so may have been applied in a rather artistic interpretation. I think that is why many of the thuluth inscribed weapons and items may not lend to literal translation, as many items whose motif is based on these kinds of script, and may well be the case here. We know the kaskara was widely used outside the Sudan, into Eritrea and Ethiopia, so certainly this may be an example from these regions as well as possibly from tribal groups within any of them. As far as accomplishing a literal translation or identification of distinct alphabet, I am not sure it will be possible as this may be simply artistically applied motif based on one or a number of dialectic characters.

17th September 2012, 09:34 AM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	For some examples of other Ethiopian blades turning up in kaskara this thread may be of interest: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11390 Albeit curved blades...

20th September 2012, 01:48 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Just discovered that the numbers in cartouche are probably item numbers in contract lot. Apparantly Luckhaus & Gunther numbered thier blades at the forte around 1895-1900 though not in cartouche. I found notes with a pair of Cuban machete type blades with two close numbers, otherwise identical, suggesting being of the same lot. As Solingen was producing blades for a variety of markets in these times, perhaps this suggests this practice was being used by the firms in fulfilling blade contracts. As previously noted blades of these types were being supplied to Abyssinia at this time for straight blade shotels, and these often ended up rerouted in trade entrepots, so being on a kaskara quite expectable, especially since Eritrea and Ethiopia also used them.

20th September 2012, 10:19 AM	#7
randallstorey Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 15	Thanks Jim, that's what I assumed the numbers indicated, and I'm fairly sure there is yet another very faint character or symbol preceding the numbers. Do we have any information on how many blades were produced per consignment? The kaskara in Stone's Glossary is also described as having a three digit number in cartouche as you put it. He thought that it indicated the Islamic year and that an AH was also stamped with the date, which supported his assertion that kaskaras often have medieval blades. I've often wondered why he would make this assertion despite being so knowledgeable. Perhaps it was a current notion, along with the idea that medieval armaments could be purchased readily and cheaply up until the 1970s. I imagine upon inspection many of the latter would have been victorian reproductions which were handsome and were snatched up even though when they come to light now they are recognised as what they are. If so many medieval arms were kicking around a few decades ago, where did they come from and where are they now? I just don't believe that many survived.