A Very Old Kris

[David]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

2. I still think that your (Gustav & David's) definition on what makes a blade a keris-kris is very restrictive; and

3. but rather than debate on my no. 2 above, would there be a 3rd party definition we can all resort to? (e.g., from an authoritative book on kerises, so that it's not my own definition vs. your own definition) -- but this is not to say that I doubt what anybody here is saying; I'm just trying to borrow a principle that's used in business, wherein whenever there's disagreement, then one resorts to common industry practice or to a third party definition (e.g., via the judicial courts' previous clarifications).

Well Miguel, for me it simply is what it is. While your idea of a third party definition might work well in some cases, it seems somewhat impractical in the case of keris/kris. Just because it is is a book doesn't make it so and i cannot personally think of any "authoritative" book on keris that spends that much time on the specifics of what technically makes a keris a keris. Perhaps someone can think of one that does.
As for the primate analogy, i think perhaps you are destroying your own argument there. For a blade to be a keris/kris, i have stipulated only that:

1. it have a asymmetric blade
2. it has a gonjo (separate or iras)
3. it has a gandik
The bohol "kalis" has only an asymmetric blade.

Now, to be considered a primate here is a short list for you:

1. Forward-facing eyes for binocular vision (allowing depth perception)
2. Increased reliance on vision: reduced noses, snouts (smaller, flattened), loss of vibrissae (whiskers), and relatively small, hairless ears
3. Color vision
4. Opposable thumbs for power grip (holding on) and precision grip (picking up small objects)
5. Grasping fingers aid in power grip
6. Flattened nails for fingertip protection, development of very sensitive tactile pads on digits
7.Primitive limb structure, one upper limb bone, two lower limb bones, many mammalian orders have lost various bones, especially fusing of the two lower limb bones
8. Generalist teeth for an opportunistic, omnivorous diet; loss of some primitive mammalian dentition, humans have lost two premolars
9. Progressive expansion and elaboration of the brain, especially of the cerebral cortex
10. Greater facial mobility and vocal repertoire
11. Progressive and increasingly efficient development of gestational processes
12. Prolongation of postnatal life periods
13. Reduced litter size—usually just one (allowing mobility with clinging young and more individual attention to young)
14. Most primates have one pair of mammae in the chest
15. Complicated social organization

So it would seem to me at least that the requirements necessary to be considered a primate are far greater than those for determining a keris. And i'm not even getting into the necessary similarity in DNA structure. Clearly we all understand that keris vary in form quite a bit, just as we see in all these different varieties of primates. This has to do with many factors, including, but not restricted to geographic location, era of production, purpose (talismanic, use as a weapon, art and/or prestige, status, etc.). But no matter how much they might vary, they still all have the 3 features i specified above.

[VANDOO]

I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS MUCH MONKYING AROUND ON A TOPIC BEFORE. A FUN AND INFORMATIVE TOPIC REGARDLESS

AS REGARDS THE KERIS WHY AND WHEN THESE FEATURES THAT SET IT APART EVOLVED CAN ONLY BE APROXIMATED UNTIL SOME ARCHEOLOGIST MAKES A DIG IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND PERHAPS WE WILL GET SOME ANSWERS.
I SUSPECT THE CHANGES MADE TO THE MORO KRIS LIKELY CAME ABOUT BECAUSE OF FIGHTING PREFRENCES AND STYLES OF THE TRIBES IN THAT AREA. THEY DESIRED A LARGER MORE ROBUST WEAPON BUT ALSO WANTED TO KEEP MANY OF THE FEATURES OF THE KERIS. BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED THE LEGENDS AND STORIES ABOUT THE POWER AND MAGIC OF THE KERIS AS WELL AS IT BEING A TRADITIONAL FORM SO THEY INCORPORATED AND MODIFIED ITS FEATURES TO FULFILL THEIR NEEDS.
BECAUSE OF THE SIZE OF THE MORO KRIS AND THE WAY IT WAS USED A ROUND TANG WAS NOT AS GOOD AS THE SQUARE ONE. I SUSPECT EARLIER SWORDS OF THE REGION WERE SQUARE TANGED AND CLOSER TO THE SINGLE EDGED FORMS, MANDAU,/KAMPILIAN AND POSSIBLY THE BARONG MAY PREDATE THE MORO KRIS.
I HAVE TRIED TO FIND AN OLD POST ON A OLD AND UNIQUE KRIS BUT SO FAR HAVE FAILED SO WHEN I CAN I WILL TRY AND TAKE SOME MORE PICTURES TO POST HERE TO SEE WHERE IT WILL FIT INTO YOUR CLASSIFICATION. PERHAPS ITS A MISSING LINK OF SORTS.
JUST CONJECTURE BUT NOT MONKEY BUSINESS