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Old 28th August 2012, 08:55 PM   #1
Rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral
"The Special Ops, "Intelligence " officer. Early Afghan War advisor, and linguist. Three tours in country. " should have more sense than putting himself under the liability of criminal charges, whether he was telling the truth or liying.. We not talking ww2 bringbacks here.

NOTE:

Thee below story is from the Marine Corps News Service, but War Trophy Guidance is derived from DOD Directives and apply to all of the services.

Some war trophies are downright sadistic - for example, enemy teeth or body parts. Needless to say, they're banned by military law.

But the law doesn't stop there. Some trophies that might seem legitimate also are barred - for example, weapons, ordnance and personal items of enemy soldiers.

Even if Marines returning from Operation Iraqi Freedom are sure their trophy is legal, they need command approval to bring it home.

"War trophies, per se, are not against the law," said Maj. Matthew W. Cord, the director of the Criminal Law Division for Marine Corps Base. "The definition of a war trophy is something we take from the enemy - not (from) enemy personnel. ... When I say we, I mean the Marine Corps. Individuals do not take it; it's done as an institution, the Department of the Navy or the Department of Defense."

Cord says laws regarding war trophies are strict.

"Before we can seize and bring back to America what we consider war trophies, it has to be approved through the chain of command ... ," said Cord. "This isn't something where a platoon commander or a company commander can just decide 'wow, I think that Iraqi tank would make a great war trophy' - they can't do that."

War trophies are a very old military tradition, Cord said. He said the tradition goes back "even before there was an America."

"The idea is that when two nations fight a war, the tools and instruments of war can be captured and taken and kept by the opposing force - but that's all that can be taken," said Cord.

Among contraband items:
•Personal effects of enemy fighters or prisoners. U.S. troops returning with such items could face larceny charges under military law, along with international, federal and state laws and general orders.
•Weapons, pieces of weapons and ordnance, according to Lt. Col. Thomas G. Scully, the staff judge advocate for the 1st Marine Division rear element.

Marines were briefed prior to deployment on what souvenirs were appropriate, said Scully.

"Everyone who went over there was given ample time to study and understand the policy," said Scully. "They were also given the opportunity to drop off weapons in dumps. So they had the opportunity to clear themselves before they left."

Nonetheless, a few Marines have returned from Operation Iraqi Freedom with forbidden items, he said.

"There have been cases were Marines have brought back pistols and ordnance," said Scully. "I suspect that those cases will be prosecuted.

"We're treating cases of ordnance brought back more severely than with weapons," said Scully. "They'll (undergo) Article 32 investigations. ... We're treating them all seriously, but more so in cases of ordnance."

Violations involving ordnance and weapons also will be subject to state and federal prosecution, Cord said.

Both men encouraged individual Marines to use their chain of command if they come across a legal war trophy they'd like to keep.

"If the Marines anticipate bringing back a war trophy, they should run it up the chain of command to make sure it is in compliance with the commanding general's policy," said Scully.

War trophies that might pass muster, based on 1st Marine Division guidance:
•Uniform items - military blouses, trousers, berets, helmets, belts, sashes, boots and gloves.
•Uniform accoutrements - military rank insignia, shoulder patches, shoulder straps, epaulets and buttons.
•Individual equipment - gas masks, swagger sticks, cartridge belts, mess kits, canteens, ammunition pouches, map cases, compasses, binoculars and other optics.
•Unit equipment - unit insignia, military photos, training manuals and training posters.
•Other - nonlethal items conforming with the spirit and intent of expressed guidance.


from.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/...phies.-tvA.htm
We are discussing the objects themselves here .
Not the story, correct ?
No sense in getting sidetracked .
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Old 28th August 2012, 09:22 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
We are discussing the objects themselves here .
Not the story, correct ?
No sense in getting sidetracked .
Absolutely. Probably Jonathan thought he was posting a chronicle in a different venue
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Old 28th August 2012, 11:10 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Absolutely. Probably Jonathan thought he was posting a chronicle in a different venue
[edited]

Now, let's get back to talking about blades.

Last edited by Rick; 29th August 2012 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 28th August 2012, 11:32 PM   #4
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God, I hate it when the moon is near full ......

Enough already .
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Old 29th August 2012, 12:19 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
God, I hate it when the moon is near full ......

Enough already .

Hi Rick,

If you look at the two Pesh-kabz that TW has just got, then your's is more like the buffalo hilted one.
T section blade and 'essentially' a flat sided blade leading to a angled flat ground edge that runs straight off of it.
On yours the edge grinding is more clearly defined.
The other one I'd say is probobly 19thC. The hilt may be Ivory or bone and the blade is actually hollow ground of a sort, rising to the 'T' spine and also rising to a shoulder before the flat ground edge.
I would expect this one to have a fairly high probability of being wootz.
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Old 29th August 2012, 12:27 AM   #6
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Next this Choora.
The one with the 'orange hilt' is a fairly standard modern type. The other one is a bit more interesting.
The hilt appears to be Ivory. Notice the concentric age cracks? Could that be Walrus!
The top of the spine is nicely worked and has an attached plate with what looks like it might be an inscription in Arabic.
Unusual in my experience.
Perhaps a close-up will be translatable by Lotfy?
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Old 29th August 2012, 12:36 AM   #7
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This is an interesting group. Very much a 'grab bag' of Afghani weapons.
Some good, some average, some look to have had recent work done on them.

The antique Military scabbards (just look at those steel drags!) are quite unusual. If the swords within are original then the mouth of the scabbard won't have marks or room for the three bar knuckle bow type and the swords might even have military stamps somewhere.

The sword with the Persian-esq chiselling is cute. Hilt looks very recent, could it be an older blade?

A nice and interesting lot.
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Old 29th August 2012, 01:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi Rick,

If you look at the two Pesh-kabz that TW has just got, then your's is more like the buffalo hilted one.
T section blade and 'essentially' a flat sided blade leading to a angled flat ground edge that runs straight off of it.
On yours the edge grinding is more clearly defined.
The other one I'd say is probobly 19thC. The hilt may be Ivory or bone and the blade is actually hollow ground of a sort, rising to the 'T' spine and also rising to a shoulder before the flat ground edge.
I would expect this one to have a fairly high probability of being wootz.
Yah, you're right, Gene .
Bad eyes on my part, I guess .

I expect only the owner can confirm the scale material .

Y'know, it sure looks like the edge on my piece was cut with a sharp instrument rather than being ground .
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Old 29th August 2012, 02:04 AM   #9
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Spiral, please empty your inbox .
I will re-open the thread after we chat .

Thanks,

Rick
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Old 30th August 2012, 03:10 AM   #10
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Where were we...

My observations

From the top:

The first piece I'd guess, is post WWII. It has the little circle disigns, you often see from this era. From North Africa, to India. Hilt is ram's horn, and steel. Suede covered wood scabbard, with galvanized sheet metal fittings.

The second knife, looks to be old, with a plain wood handle. Nice patina, with a small amount of decoration. Several forging flaws. Military scabbard.

Number three, has an identical patina, and is also lightly decorated. Horn, and steel handle looks to be a fairly recent replacement. Military scabbard.

The blade on number four has an old looking patina, but also the unusual Indo Persian engraving. Hilt is horn, bone, and steel, and looks replaced. Scabbard is soft leather, over sheet metal.

The two on the right, are missing scabbards: The larger one, looks to be the newest, at less than 20 years old. Hilt is brass, ram, and steel. The smaller one, has the same patina, as the two in military scabbards. And is similarly decorated. Hilt is ram, and steel. It's missing the steel portion of the hilt, on the opposite side.

The hilt of the "orange" Choora, is made of ivory-celuloid. If made in the US, I'd say 1920-40. Elsewhere in the world, I don't know. Workmanship is good, but looks like production work.

The smaller one, does have an ivory hilt, and is very well made, and decorated. I think it is pretty old, and was made for someone of status.

The smallest one, is tourista all the way. Bone and brass handle, with the same little circles. Post WWII.

The grips on the light handled Pesh-kabz, are ram's horn, and were replaced, a very long time ago. Blade looks very old, with deep pitting. Some decoration on the spine. I believe it to be the oldest.

The dark handle, is horn, and has several repairs. Blade has the most pleasing patina, and has never been sharpened since it was made. I think it is very old, as well.

Well, that's my long winded observations, of an area I know next to nothing about.
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Old 30th August 2012, 02:25 PM   #11
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All I have to add is that cache is the bargain of a lifetime. Looks like you just found yourself a niche!
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Old 31st August 2012, 03:41 AM   #12
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I have a severe case of C.A.D.D. (Collector's Attention Deficit Disorder) I find my niche, all the time! I did a close examination of all the blades with a glass. Without an etching, The only blade that's wootz, is the black Pesh-kabz. And, I think it has rhino grip panels!!! I'm not fimiliar to the properties of rhino, but I see a definate pattern, that's not found in bovine, or other type horn. The white dagger is deeply pitted, and has deep scratches from being "cleaned".
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Old 31st August 2012, 06:21 PM   #13
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If you hold a Rhino hilt in your wet hand it will stick to the skin; not like glue, but it will not feel slippery that is .
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