Saif for comment

[Richard G]

Good afternoon,
Well, the discussion has certainly moved on. However it seems to me that of all the pictures we have seen, inluding Ibrahim's thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen) the blade here most resembles those in this thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14298), i.e Afghan. Obviously there are any number of reasons why an Afghan blade could appear in a Zanzibari type hilt, including, of course, some we would rather not contemplate.
Regards
Richard

[A.alnakkas]

I really dont get how the stamp on the blade resembles the supposed mazar sharif stamp. The stamp is basically an X within 2 squares and with an I across the X. Seems like an easy made up stamp that may resemble anything from Afghan to European stuff.

I would say that this blade is locally made and the stamp is the maker's mark, Simple as that.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent suggestions Ibrahiim! and Lofty and Richard also great observations. The discussion has indeed moved forward perfectly.

As noted, this stamp, which is indeed probably used by either a maker or possibly importer is a formal type rather than crudely applied imitation, and has nothing to do with the Mazir i Sharif stamp. There is every possibility of course that the blade is of existing Afghan types as they typically used a considerable array of weapons from a number of sources.
As I noted also, the connections between the Sind and Baluchistan regions of India are well established, as the eastern sector of trade routes from Oman, then to Yemen and Zanzibar as the western sector.

The 'nimcha' or Moroccan sa'if is firmly developed from Arabian sabres (as I was once told by Dominique Buttin) with these type quillon systems derived apparantly from Italian hilts of 16th century (A. North, 1975). The same influences are notable in the Sinhalese 'kastane' (an even further east Arabian trade contact, Serandib or Ceylon). The arrival of these kinds of hilts in Zanzibar are of course via the Omani trade routes which also brought the well discussed Omani 'kattara' to this sphere. Presumably the same connections are somewhat related to these forms in Morocco (also in degree in Algeria in the Maghreb context).

I am unclear on which European stamps may be spuriously applied in Oman, but since European trade blades were present in some degree by the late 18th-19th century it seems likely that some were, much as the Andrea Ferara noted. It may be presumed that the example seen in 19th century reflected a much older presence given the anachronistic nature of the situations in Oman at the time and even relatively in more recent times.

I think the suggestion of the stylized Omani emblem is quite plausible and well placed as such key emblems were often less intricately reproduced in these kinds of circumstances. I think the 'Passau wolf' is a great example of such variation as well as others such as the dukari moons in North Africa.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent suggestions Ibrahiim! and Lofty and Richard also great observations. The discussion has indeed moved forward perfectly.

As noted, this stamp, which is indeed probably used by either a maker or possibly importer is a formal type rather than crudely applied imitation, and has nothing to do with the Mazir i Sharif stamp. There is every possibility of course that the blade is of existing Afghan types as they typically used a considerable array of weapons from a number of sources.
As I noted also, the connections between the Sind and Baluchistan regions of India are well established, as the eastern sector of trade routes from Oman, then to Yemen and Zanzibar as the western sector.

The 'nimcha' or Moroccan sa'if is firmly developed from Arabian sabres (as I was once told by Dominique Buttin) with these type quillon systems derived apparantly from Italian hilts of 16th century (A. North, 1975). The same influences are notable in the Sinhalese 'kastane' (an even further east Arabian trade contact, Serandib or Ceylon). The arrival of these kinds of hilts in Zanzibar are of course via the Omani trade routes which also brought the well discussed Omani 'kattara' to this sphere. Presumably the same connections are somewhat related to these forms in Morocco (also in degree in Algeria in the Maghreb context).

I am unclear on which European stamps may be spuriously applied in Oman, but since European trade blades were present in some degree by the late 18th-19th century it seems likely that some were, much as the Andrea Ferara noted. It may be presumed that the example seen in 19th century reflected a much older presence given the anachronistic nature of the situations in Oman at the time and even relatively in more recent times.

I think the suggestion of the stylized Omani emblem is quite plausible and well placed as such key emblems were often less intricately reproduced in these kinds of circumstances. I think the 'Passau wolf' is a great example of such variation as well as others such as the dukari moons in North Africa.

Salaams Jim ~ Thankyou for the excellent reply~ I looked at the stamp many times trying to figure it out but its just not clear enough... at one point I thought it could have been two budgies feet facing each other or the possibility of some sort of Omani Naval or military stamp is still floating..Although the blade looks European it could be Indian or Yemeni so there could be some relevance in greater Hyderabad and or Hadramauti influence here...

It is interesting that you actually met Buttin and that must have been a great exchange of ideas. I only have a few extracts mainly sketches of his main page refering to Nimchas and I wondered if he stated where they came from... Morocco or Italy? It is certainly an ideal weapon particularly for ship work and men with a smaller build.

As an entirely different note I also wonder if Schiavona similarly drifted into the Red Sea region as this could be the lead which has brought several "Omani looking" but non flexible blades into that arena, their provenance made harder since they are rehilted on various different hilts.

I sent my camera crew to Muscat a few days ago with the mission to retrieve pictures from certain museums and hopefully we shall get some results soon...like what were the "military swords" of Oman like in the 19th C?

Meanwhile this blade is a puzzle both in the stamp and its make up... and one area we have rather not been able to put under the scope is Sri Lanka with its peculiar but very own specific Nimcha (Kastane) and the Arab link.
I think this is a great debate and very much opens up the entire Nimcha story.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ibrahim,
It was indeed a great exchange of ideas, and especially talking about his esteemed grandfather who had apparantly lived in Morocco a good number of years. The 'nimchas' in Buttins catalog (1933) were all from either North Africa or Arab provenance asI recall. Actually the late Anthony North recalled the details of the suggestions of North Italian beginnings of these Arab swords in a 1975 article, noting that Buttin had pointed out the resemblances of the kastane and nimchas to the stortas of Italy of the late 15th century.

It seems that nimchas in North Africa often had full size blades rather than the shorter, cutlass type blades associated with onboard close quarters fighting. It seems these 'corsairs' often were involved more in raiding on shore than at sea.
I think that blades from Italy did enter the Red Sea trade, but these were not necessarily schiavona (which refers more to the hilt configuration) but full size arming sword blades. The presence of Italian trade had of course been in many regions of North Africa from early times, and the influence of Italian arms well placed among a number of weapon forms there.

All best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ibrahim,
It was indeed a great exchange of ideas, and especially talking about his esteemed grandfather who had apparantly lived in Morocco a good number of years. The 'nimchas' in Buttins catalog (1933) were all from either North Africa or Arab provenance asI recall. Actually the late Anthony North recalled the details of the suggestions of North Italian beginnings of these Arab swords in a 1975 article, noting that Buttin had pointed out the resemblances of the kastane and nimchas to the stortas of Italy of the late 15th century.

It seems that nimchas in North Africa often had full size blades rather than the shorter, cutlass type blades associated with onboard close quarters fighting. It seems these 'corsairs' often were involved more in raiding on shore than at sea.
I think that blades from Italy did enter the Red Sea trade, but these were not necessarily schiavona (which refers more to the hilt configuration) but full size arming sword blades. The presence of Italian trade had of course been in many regions of North Africa from early times, and the influence of Italian arms well placed among a number of weapon forms there.

All best regards,
Jim

References;
A http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha see # 26 by Kurt.

Salaams Jim ~ I thought a picture of Buttins page above on the subject would be useful. It appears that these were Arab styles.
On the subject of Schiavona, actually, I refer to blade form rather than hilt form and in particular double edged blades. It makes sense that blades leaked into the red sea region from this Italian style and would have been re hilted. It goes as rather a note in the marjin since I have no extended proof though I suspect the non flexible blades occasionally seen on some Omani rehilts and in some museums/souks in Yemen and Saudia may be related to these though for me, as yet, it remains penciled in for a further look later.

I find it very interesting about the stortas linkage..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for posting the Buttin page Ibrahiim! As I recall I once obtained one of these 'Zanzibar' type sa'if from a grouping which came out of Yemen. It seems that the traffic of arms mounted with trade blades in Zanzibar supplied Yemen as well as of course Oman in some degree as they returned. I am naturally not as well informed on the actual forms or distribution of these weapons to and from Oman, but the presence of the Omani sa'if does appear to have followed trade routes into North Africa. I still believe that these swords deeply influenced the Manding sabres of Mali, as Timbouctou was not only a key trade center but Islamic cultural center of profound importance.

It seems likely if not established that Italian blades had continued coming into North Africa in varying degree from earlier times, and became even more prevalent in the latter 19th century as colonization increased. It is often difficult to determine as Solingen producers spuriously applied so many established maker and guild type markings from Italy. Actually, many schiavona blades were indeed Solingen produced with such markings.

It is most interesting to see the hilt quillon systems on many of these 16th century Italian swords, particularly the storta, and the remarkable similarity to the 'nimcha' saif and the kastane. It seems the earliest known example of the kastane in the familiar hilt form was 1622, from a Japanese diplomatic mission which stopped in Ceylon and returned to Tokyo that year. This would suggest of course that the late 16th century Italian swords had established thier influence in those early decades. There are portraits of English merchants trading in Morocco wearing the familiar 'nimcha' hilts c. 1640s so the influence had been established there presumably in roughly the same period.

Ibrahiim I really appreciate the way you keep discussions going and extend well thought through ideas and suggestions which promote serious evaluations of material and evidence. I very much like your tenacity in ongoing research as clearly shown in your outstanding note regarding items penciled in for further look....as we always say..more research to be done!!!

All the best,
Jim