Saif for comment

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Tatyana Dianova ~ Jim of course is spot on and I dived for my copy of Buttin on this subject.. It is well covered in his sketches. The stamp appears to be Omani..(rare as I have not seen a stamp before like this). Probably Zanzibar. I would say possibly military mid to late 19th C.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I am curious why you think this stamp is Omani, if as you say, you have not seen this before.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Stu for posting the 'Zanzibari' form hilt, which clearly shows the distinct similarities in the channels profiling the grips which in this case seem to be horn. Interesting that the peaked decorated ferrule is very much the same as well.
The deep stamped mark at the ricasso as shown resembles these kinds of bold stamps apparantly occurring in blades which are typically regarded as from regions in Rajasthan. The effect of this stamp is mindful of those attributed to represent the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif, but is not the same.
As has been importantly noted, these MiS stamps are actually regime stamps from Abdur Rahman Khan 1880-1903 in Afghanistan, and not for a particular arsenal as AJ well noted in previous discussions.

I think the most important thing to recognize about this sabre is that it is strongly representative of the Red Sea trade, and the connections between Arabia and India, as well as East Africa. While these style hilts are known to have been popular in the Yemen in Arabia, as well as in Zanzibar with the Omani trade and Sultanate there....they were also produced in Hyderabad in India. There were profound connections between Baluchistan and Oman and I think that the rhino horn seen in examples of Central Asian weapons, including shashka type sabres with similar type marks alongside the government (MiS) stamp of Afghanistan, suggests the trade of these materials. It would seem possible that Omani craftsmen may have adopted these kinds of stamps much as they did with a number of Solingen marks in thier locally produced blades.

The prominant ricasso block is typically indicative of a European blade, but as noted, despite the European features, lacks the quality of typical European blades. In the Anglo-Afghan type sabres of c.1890s we have often discussed, these heavy , deeply channeled blades I have always thought of as European, it would seem these may well have been produced in Rajasthan in European style.

The complexity of this history in these regions is one of the reasons sabres such as this one are powerfully exciting as well as extremely attractive.

[spiral]

Lovely Saif Tatiana!

The so called Mazir i Sharif stamp is actualy an Afghan goverment property marking. Nothing to do with the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif or an armoury there.

It was often stamped at Kabul arsenal on both localy made pieces & on imported swords & bayonets.

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by spiral

Lovely Saif Tatiana!

The so called Mazir i Sharif stamp is actualy an Afghan goverment property marking. Nothing to do with the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif or an armoury there.

It was often stamped at Kabul arsenal on both localy made pieces & on imported swords & bayonets.

spiral

Actually the stamp is the regime stamp used during the rule of Emir Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1880-1901) and probably after by his son. It actually represents the Shrine of Hazrat Ali, the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif (Mazir i Sharif = Noble Shrine) and was used on coinage as well as seen on these stamped weapons.
It seems that these kinds of 'royal property' stamps are often regarded as 'arsenal' stamps in a number of cases with Indian arms as well, when a specific location was not necessarily indicated.
This was explained by AJ last year in the discussion linked, and in his post in this thread. Actually his post was what reminded me as I wrote my last post.

As also noted, the marking on Tatyana's sa'if is of a type used and diffused somewhat widely through the trade spheres mentioned and do not appear to be connected to the Afghan 'royal property' markings.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ I think the stamp is Omani though I have never seen one before. Whilst it doesnt look like the Afghan mark it may be a stamp from that region however I suspect Omani Military as a possible solution.

Here below is the Omani emblem. It occurs on the National Flag and was in fact the Oman Army capbadge. Is the sword stamp derived from this flag insignia? ~ I have to say that although I have never seen this stamp before it may be a mark used on Zanzibari or military swords of that period (I havent seen any of them either! and I have never been to Zanzibar !!)

On blades on this style~ though there is no concrete rule~ I thought the blades were derived usually from Shashqa for this type of Nimcha sword and Karabela swords?

What is the true relationship between this sword and the Moroccan (Algerian and North African) and which one came first?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually the stamp is the regime stamp used during the rule of Emir Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1880-1901) and probably after by his son. It actually represents the Shrine of Hazrat Ali, the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif (Mazir i Sharif = Noble Shrine) and was used on coinage as well as seen on these stamped weapons.
It seems that these kinds of 'royal property' stamps are often regarded as 'arsenal' stamps in a number of cases with Indian arms as well, when a specific location was not necessarily indicated.
This was explained by AJ last year in the discussion linked, and in his post in this thread. Actually his post was what reminded me as I wrote my last post.

As also noted, the marking on Tatyana's sa'if is of a type used and diffused somewhat widely through the trade spheres mentioned and do not appear to be connected to the Afghan 'royal property' markings.

Thanks Jim, Id looked at hundreds of photos of the mosque & it made no sense, as soon as you add the word shrine it all comes together, Thank you!

I think the same crest has been used by many goverments of Afghanistan untill the present day?

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Spiral thank you for the kind note on my comments on the marking.
It does seem clearer understanding more on this puzzling marking which was an indicator of Islamic government used on Afghan weapons and coins.

I wanted to add the photo of one of the Afghan military swords in the 2nd image (which often carry this stamp in the forte) to illustrate the similarity in the rounded fuller terminal at the forte. I had often wondered where these heavy and crisply made blades were from thinking that perhaps they were Solingen 'blanks'. The block ricasso caused me to think they were European at the time. In view of information discussed here and rethinking, it does seem these may have been produced in Kabul in the 1880s after the 2nd Afghan War and with the British presence and influence, since this was the location for the arsenal.
The 'shashka' of Afghan form (3rd image) and remarkably similar type blade to Tatyanas sa'if has the 'Afghan government stamp' discussed along with two others of different content.

The other illustration (1st image) is of a kaskara which has one of the deep stamps as seen on Tatyanas sa'if, at least in form, in the centrally situated fuller. It is one of the 'Kasallawi' types which are presumed made in the 20th century, perhaps as late as 1960s.

In earlier discussions we have seen similar stamps of this heavily struck form on knives with unresolved classification (often in triplicate stamping) but which seem to me to be likely of North Indian origin. These have a kind of arched back profile resembling the kukri in degree. With the British influence in North India and influence of Nepalese kukris known in these Indian regions, there may be some connection establishing this deeply struck X and lines type stamp in areas of Northern India which produced blades using these marks or similar.

We know that some blades from India did end up used in Sudanese kaskara though not in great number, and it is curious to see similar stamped marks used on one of these blades, contrary to markings typically found.

We also may presume that blades of European form with block ricasso may have been produced in India, perhaps modelled on imports which could have come from Solingen. It seems earlier it had been suggested that Solingen may have been producing 'blanks' for North African markets.

These thoughts of course pertain to the possible provenance of Tatyana's sa'if, with the much broader picture of the development of the 'nimcha' form needing much more intricate review. We have had many discussions on this topic, but most seem to have been inconclusive, which follows of course the question of the development and forms of these sa'if.

While possibly better discussed on a separate thread, I will note here that I think the kastane, though somewhat resembling the hilt systems of the Arabian sa'if and Italian stortas and other swords of 15th century probably developed from European models. It does seem that the jinete type swords, some of which have certain similar quillon arrangements, may well have developed through the Italian influence as well. The arms of Spain and Italy have often been closely associated.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Spiral thank you for the kind note on my comments on the marking.
It does seem clearer understanding more on this puzzling marking which was an indicator of Islamic government used on Afghan weapons and coins.

I wanted to add the photo of one of the Afghan military swords in the 2nd image (which often carry this stamp in the forte) to illustrate the similarity in the rounded fuller terminal at the forte. I had often wondered where these heavy and crisply made blades were from thinking that perhaps they were Solingen 'blanks'. The block ricasso caused me to think they were European at the time. In view of information discussed here and rethinking, it does seem these may have been produced in Kabul in the 1880s after the 2nd Afghan War and with the British presence and influence, since this was the location for the arsenal.
The 'shashka' of Afghan form (3rd image) and remarkably similar type blade to Tatyanas sa'if has the 'Afghan government stamp' discussed along with two others of different content.

The other illustration (1st image) is of a kaskara which has one of the deep stamps as seen on Tatyanas sa'if, at least in form, in the centrally situated fuller. It is one of the 'Kasallawi' types which are presumed made in the 20th century, perhaps as late as 1960s.

In earlier discussions we have seen similar stamps of this heavily struck form on knives with unresolved classification (often in triplicate stamping) but which seem to me to be likely of North Indian origin. These have a kind of arched back profile resembling the kukri in degree. With the British influence in North India and influence of Nepalese kukris known in these Indian regions, there may be some connection establishing this deeply struck X and lines type stamp in areas of Northern India which produced blades using these marks or similar.

We know that some blades from India did end up used in Sudanese kaskara though not in great number, and it is curious to see similar stamped marks used on one of these blades, contrary to markings typically found.

We also may presume that blades of European form with block ricasso may have been produced in India, perhaps modelled on imports which could have come from Solingen. It seems earlier it had been suggested that Solingen may have been producing 'blanks' for North African markets.

These thoughts of course pertain to the possible provenance of Tatyana's sa'if, with the much broader picture of the development of the 'nimcha' form needing much more intricate review. We have had many discussions on this topic, but most seem to have been inconclusive, which follows of course the question of the development and forms of these sa'if.

While possibly better discussed on a separate thread, I will note here that I think the kastane, though somewhat resembling the hilt systems of the Arabian sa'if and Italian stortas and other swords of 15th century probably developed from European models. It does seem that the jinete type swords, some of which have certain similar quillon arrangements, may well have developed through the Italian influence as well. The arms of Spain and Italy have often been closely associated.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Brilliant picture of the same stamp as on the project sword at # 1. That saves me a trip to Zanzibar !! That stamp...It looks similar to the Union Jack !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Stu for posting the 'Zanzibari' form hilt, which clearly shows the distinct similarities in the channels profiling the grips which in this case seem to be horn. Interesting that the peaked decorated ferrule is very much the same as well.
The deep stamped mark at the ricasso as shown resembles these kinds of bold stamps apparantly occurring in blades which are typically regarded as from regions in Rajasthan. The effect of this stamp is mindful of those attributed to represent the Mosque at Mazir i Sharif, but is not the same.
As has been importantly noted, these MiS stamps are actually regime stamps from Abdur Rahman Khan 1880-1903 in Afghanistan, and not for a particular arsenal as AJ well noted in previous discussions.

I think the most important thing to recognize about this sabre is that it is strongly representative of the Red Sea trade, and the connections between Arabia and India, as well as East Africa. While these style hilts are known to have been popular in the Yemen in Arabia, as well as in Zanzibar with the Omani trade and Sultanate there....they were also produced in Hyderabad in India. There were profound connections between Baluchistan and Oman and I think that the rhino horn seen in examples of Central Asian weapons, including shashka type sabres with similar type marks alongside the government (MiS) stamp of Afghanistan, suggests the trade of these materials. It would seem possible that Omani craftsmen may have adopted these kinds of stamps much as they did with a number of Solingen marks in thier locally produced blades.

The prominant ricasso block is typically indicative of a European blade, but as noted, despite the European features, lacks the quality of typical European blades. In the Anglo-Afghan type sabres of c.1890s we have often discussed, these heavy , deeply channeled blades I have always thought of as European, it would seem these may well have been produced in Rajasthan in European style.

The complexity of this history in these regions is one of the reasons sabres such as this one are powerfully exciting as well as extremely attractive.

Reference http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen

Salaams Jim ~ May I refer readers to the reference above which shows a classic Zanzibari sword etc etc and for some background...(plus posts from you)
It is a good thing that I never got to explore Mazir i Sherif looking for their old armoury ! The explanations by various members clears that one up entirely... Where the wheel comes slightly off the bike is in the distinction between Moroccan and Zanzibari Nimcha (incl. Algerian and North African variants) supposedly transmitted by merchants and pirates along the North African Coast (from Italian styles) though there is substantial evidence to suggest that the weapon is a Spanish derived species(Jinetta). Can it be both? Further what is the relationship between that and the Red Sea variant drawn by Buttin in many forms covering as I recall Saudia or Arabian variants as well as Yemeni and Zanzibari.. The recognition marks seem relevant on the pure Zanzibari already discussed at some length on forum but I am puzzled by the differing provenances ..

Is it in fact plausible that Hyderabad which is known to have had links to the Yemeni sword production could be the source of the Zanzibari Nimcha style and that no transmission is attributable to Morocco at all?

In reference to Solingen marks on Omani blades. I am uncertain what Solingen marks are used upon local Omani blades since I cannot recall seeing one. I have seen Solingen marks on blades imported from the Red Sea zone and rehilted recently in Muscat (originally European) but I wondered which marks you refer to...? ... there was a reference to a western visitor to Hormuz seeing the Andrea Ferrera marks in the early 19th C?... but of others I see none. (though I am checking furiously !!) I add that insofar as the passau wolf is concerned I am not at all sure who inscribed the blades in the case of wolf stamp copies...which they all appear to be... was it the sword maker or the owner?...so I have discounted the wolf mark.

It seems that the stamp on the sword at this thread appears to be a formal stamp rather than a roughly hewn squigle as in the case of the fake wolf marks however I cannot be certain unless more stamps can be found. It is on my list for my next museum visit.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Good afternoon,
Well, the discussion has certainly moved on. However it seems to me that of all the pictures we have seen, inluding Ibrahim's thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen) the blade here most resembles those in this thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14298), i.e Afghan. Obviously there are any number of reasons why an Afghan blade could appear in a Zanzibari type hilt, including, of course, some we would rather not contemplate.
Regards
Richard

[A.alnakkas]

I really dont get how the stamp on the blade resembles the supposed mazar sharif stamp. The stamp is basically an X within 2 squares and with an I across the X. Seems like an easy made up stamp that may resemble anything from Afghan to European stuff.

I would say that this blade is locally made and the stamp is the maker's mark, Simple as that.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent suggestions Ibrahiim! and Lofty and Richard also great observations. The discussion has indeed moved forward perfectly.

As noted, this stamp, which is indeed probably used by either a maker or possibly importer is a formal type rather than crudely applied imitation, and has nothing to do with the Mazir i Sharif stamp. There is every possibility of course that the blade is of existing Afghan types as they typically used a considerable array of weapons from a number of sources.
As I noted also, the connections between the Sind and Baluchistan regions of India are well established, as the eastern sector of trade routes from Oman, then to Yemen and Zanzibar as the western sector.

The 'nimcha' or Moroccan sa'if is firmly developed from Arabian sabres (as I was once told by Dominique Buttin) with these type quillon systems derived apparantly from Italian hilts of 16th century (A. North, 1975). The same influences are notable in the Sinhalese 'kastane' (an even further east Arabian trade contact, Serandib or Ceylon). The arrival of these kinds of hilts in Zanzibar are of course via the Omani trade routes which also brought the well discussed Omani 'kattara' to this sphere. Presumably the same connections are somewhat related to these forms in Morocco (also in degree in Algeria in the Maghreb context).

I am unclear on which European stamps may be spuriously applied in Oman, but since European trade blades were present in some degree by the late 18th-19th century it seems likely that some were, much as the Andrea Ferara noted. It may be presumed that the example seen in 19th century reflected a much older presence given the anachronistic nature of the situations in Oman at the time and even relatively in more recent times.

I think the suggestion of the stylized Omani emblem is quite plausible and well placed as such key emblems were often less intricately reproduced in these kinds of circumstances. I think the 'Passau wolf' is a great example of such variation as well as others such as the dukari moons in North Africa.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent suggestions Ibrahiim! and Lofty and Richard also great observations. The discussion has indeed moved forward perfectly.

As noted, this stamp, which is indeed probably used by either a maker or possibly importer is a formal type rather than crudely applied imitation, and has nothing to do with the Mazir i Sharif stamp. There is every possibility of course that the blade is of existing Afghan types as they typically used a considerable array of weapons from a number of sources.
As I noted also, the connections between the Sind and Baluchistan regions of India are well established, as the eastern sector of trade routes from Oman, then to Yemen and Zanzibar as the western sector.

The 'nimcha' or Moroccan sa'if is firmly developed from Arabian sabres (as I was once told by Dominique Buttin) with these type quillon systems derived apparantly from Italian hilts of 16th century (A. North, 1975). The same influences are notable in the Sinhalese 'kastane' (an even further east Arabian trade contact, Serandib or Ceylon). The arrival of these kinds of hilts in Zanzibar are of course via the Omani trade routes which also brought the well discussed Omani 'kattara' to this sphere. Presumably the same connections are somewhat related to these forms in Morocco (also in degree in Algeria in the Maghreb context).

I am unclear on which European stamps may be spuriously applied in Oman, but since European trade blades were present in some degree by the late 18th-19th century it seems likely that some were, much as the Andrea Ferara noted. It may be presumed that the example seen in 19th century reflected a much older presence given the anachronistic nature of the situations in Oman at the time and even relatively in more recent times.

I think the suggestion of the stylized Omani emblem is quite plausible and well placed as such key emblems were often less intricately reproduced in these kinds of circumstances. I think the 'Passau wolf' is a great example of such variation as well as others such as the dukari moons in North Africa.

Salaams Jim ~ Thankyou for the excellent reply~ I looked at the stamp many times trying to figure it out but its just not clear enough... at one point I thought it could have been two budgies feet facing each other or the possibility of some sort of Omani Naval or military stamp is still floating..Although the blade looks European it could be Indian or Yemeni so there could be some relevance in greater Hyderabad and or Hadramauti influence here...

It is interesting that you actually met Buttin and that must have been a great exchange of ideas. I only have a few extracts mainly sketches of his main page refering to Nimchas and I wondered if he stated where they came from... Morocco or Italy? It is certainly an ideal weapon particularly for ship work and men with a smaller build.

As an entirely different note I also wonder if Schiavona similarly drifted into the Red Sea region as this could be the lead which has brought several "Omani looking" but non flexible blades into that arena, their provenance made harder since they are rehilted on various different hilts.

I sent my camera crew to Muscat a few days ago with the mission to retrieve pictures from certain museums and hopefully we shall get some results soon...like what were the "military swords" of Oman like in the 19th C?

Meanwhile this blade is a puzzle both in the stamp and its make up... and one area we have rather not been able to put under the scope is Sri Lanka with its peculiar but very own specific Nimcha (Kastane) and the Arab link.
I think this is a great debate and very much opens up the entire Nimcha story.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.