Sword hilt for ID

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The beak of that example is more akin to the carved ivory Dutch example and both are actually eagle like.
The beak on Nando's example is more like an Ibis or even a parrot.
I'm not saying it couldn't be an eagle. But if it is an eagle then the person who cast it didn't know what an eagle looks like.

I have enough of a picture libray that I can match a good many in fair comparison. The one that has been mentioned as Dutch and then mention of kastane in this thread prompts one from my unsorted folder.

I was really a hold out about the influences of world travels reaching Europe and the kastane bridge particularly until seeing a magnificent portrait of an Englishman in battle of the English civil war with a truly serious kastane hilt.

So anyway, this one for the other hanger of the thread I will refrain from posting all the Shriner's scimitars variations I have come across There are a number of full brass hilts of eagle and bird form associated with the Americas and my picture files (many thousands) for those of North America (ie USA) can be broken down pretty easily between the bird and eagle types.

It is the bird head pommels of generally English patterns that the Lattimer collection fill the pages along with the true crested eagles. As important in that collection and presentation are the pages of Roman and knighlty form pommels.

I found Jim's classification of toucan quite apt and had thought that immediately myself before he wrote it (strange minds do sometimes think alike). My own classifications of three major players in American Eaglehead Pommels is broken down to Larry, Curly and Moe of the three stooges (Osborn, Bolton and Ketand) so I can appreciate whatever one may call an item but the bird in question beginning this thread is none of those.

Cheers

GC

Cheers

GC

[Atlantia]

Hi Glen,

I also thought it reminiscent of a Toucan funnily enough.
So what's your conclusion?
I know the Roman hilts that you speak of, but again they couldn't be miscast as parrots... well the ones I'm familiar with anyway.
Even the quite stylised ones are recognisable as Eagles.
Hold on I've got one somewhere.....


Edit:
Even when the form is quite stylised as in this one, it's usually still recognisable as an eagle. As in my dagger pommel below.

[Hotspur]

Hi Gene

I know the Roman hilts that you speak of, but again they couldn't be miscast as parrots... well the ones I'm familiar with anyway.

I was simply encapsulating what can be found in Hartzler's book on the Lattimer collection, No connection implied to the sword initiating this thread, simply pointing out (again) that the book has nothing to offer in regard to the sword under discussion.

Cheers

GC

[Jim McDougall]

Glen and Gene thank you guys for the kind notes on my toucan suggestion. Although it seemed rather 'left field', it seemed a compelling enough idea to place in the discussion here, which has proven really intriguing.
I think another feature in Fernando's sword which to me stands out for a Mexican weapon is the heavy plumage which seems to correspond to the eagle in the Mexican emblem.
In the tropical regions of Mexico it does seem possible that an artisan fashioning a cast hilt might have these influences coupled with the familiarity of the tropical birds such as toucan. The often dramatic stylization and simply general artistic license would seem to offer considerable ground for anomalies such as this.

Fernando, still fascinated by the markings you have shown from the blade. Where are they situated, and any chance that close ups might show them in place?

All the best,
Jim

[Hotspur]

While I did agree in first impression in similarity to a toucan, the stretch to apply it to the Mexican eagle is as wrong headed as applying the Lattimer collection as examples of the bird. The Aztec mythology of Huitzilopochtli in no way included a toucan. It is true though that there were many tropical birds and colorful feathers well noted.

All in all (aside from the blade itself) a tourista middle eastern brass hilt is as viable an explanation as projecting the possibility to north and south America. The condor, certainly another bird used for sword hilts.

Cheers

GC

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

While I did agree in first impression in similarity to a toucan, the stretch to apply it to the Mexican eagle is as wrong headed as applying the Lattimer collection as examples of the bird. The Aztec mythology of Huitzilopochtli in no way included a toucan. It is true though that there were many tropical birds and colorful feathers well noted.

All in all (aside from the blade itself) a tourista middle eastern brass hilt is as viable an explanation as projecting the possibility to north and south America. The condor, certainly another bird used for sword hilts.

Cheers

GC

Ouch! how deftly placed! Guess thats how we learn.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

While I did agree in first impression in similarity to a toucan, the stretch to apply it to the Mexican eagle is as wrong headed as applying the Lattimer collection as examples of the bird. The Aztec mythology of Huitzilopochtli in no way included a toucan. It is true though that there were many tropical birds and colorful feathers well noted.

All in all (aside from the blade itself) a tourista middle eastern brass hilt is as viable an explanation as projecting the possibility to north and south America. The condor, certainly another bird used for sword hilts.

Cheers

GC

Actually I think the first impressions with regard to the toucan perspective in trying to approximate what type of bird this might be were simply that, though I was the one who expressed it. I appreciated your comment regarding that.

My suggestion regarding the appearance of the bird as far as what kind of bird it might represent suggested that perhaps the artisan who fashioned the bird might have been 'influenced' artistically by a bird of tropical regions in Mexico such as the toucan. In no way was my suggestion implying that the hilt was a National Audubon Society degree image of the toucan, simply noting the resemblance. This was very much the case with Mark's notes on the American eagle heads, notes for comparison, not exact matches.
There do seem to be notable similarities in the high relief feathers though, and again that feature in the Mexican emblem was presented in the same sense. Thus far it seems that the Americas are the most likely source for this sabre, though I would not discount Middle Eastern possibilities if I could think of any associated examples, and would look forward to seeing anything that would support the notion.

These comparisons are shown to suggest possible influences on a zoomorphic hilt which at this point remains indistinguishable and Fernando's point regarding artistic license is well placed.

It is always good to see constructive discussion in looking into the history of these, particularly when conflicting views are presented with such courtesy, a pleasure indeed. Often misinterpreted perceptions take place, and this is when this becomes most important.

Fernando, looking forward to more on the marks, and hope we might have some ideas come in that these might be linked to.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

If we (only) directed our steps to the possibilities of this hilt being the bust of an actual bird, what i find so far to have a similar figure are Calaus (Hornbills), namely the grey hornbill from Malabar and the Sub-Saarian hornbill.
Obviously this would be a 360º turn in all that has been discussed so far. But having no undeniable evidence, i am only taking care of not excluding other possibilities.
I once had a rustic sword made in (Ex-French Colonial) Africa, with a brass hilt undoubtedly imitating an European sabre, but with its pommel depicting a zoomorphic figure, apparently some species of hornbill.
In any case, this is an opportunity to share pictures of these splendid birds

..

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually I think the first impressions with regard to the toucan perspective in trying to approximate what type of bird this might be were simply that, though I was the one who expressed it. I appreciated your comment regarding that.

My suggestion regarding the appearance of the bird as far as what kind of bird it might represent suggested that perhaps the artisan who fashioned the bird might have been 'influenced' artistically by a bird of tropical regions in Mexico such as the toucan. In no way was my suggestion implying that the hilt was a National Audubon Society degree image of the toucan, simply noting the resemblance. This was very much the case with Mark's notes on the American eagle heads, notes for comparison, not exact matches.
There do seem to be notable similarities in the high relief feathers though, and again that feature in the Mexican emblem was presented in the same sense. Thus far it seems that the Americas are the most likely source for this sabre, though I would not discount Middle Eastern possibilities if I could think of any associated examples, and would look forward to seeing anything that would support the notion.

These comparisons are shown to suggest possible influences on a zoomorphic hilt which at this point remains indistinguishable and Fernando's point regarding artistic license is well placed.

It is always good to see constructive discussion in looking into the history of these, particularly when conflicting views are presented with such courtesy, a pleasure indeed. Often misinterpreted perceptions take place, and this is when this becomes most important.

Fernando, looking forward to more on the marks, and hope we might have some ideas come in that these might be linked to.

All the best,
Jim

Jim

It would be silly of me to repeat myself time and again but I will point out (again) that the Lattimer collection birds range wide with no exacting similarities aside from birds heads with feathers, I will add that the bird pommels are not Amerrican-centric and that the pommels were popular elsewhere (on the other side of the Atlantic). Relating them as American eagles in the Medicus book (which Mark brought up) again means all we are looking at is bird heads with feathers. One could bring Peterson's book out and see the same, or Neumann and see the same. Birds with feathers, yes but not of influences apparent in the sword being discussed and really very much not of the same genre of birds.

If I seem up in arms regarding the books being used as similarities and even said as exacting, I say get a grip. I could surely find similar feathers on Japanese or Chinese art, indeed across the globe. How many ways to depict feathers. I would venture not so many compared to the global use of them in art. Mark listed his exacting beak as found in the Hartzler book. I have posted a scan of that. I said and will continue to say phooey to that. Whatever None of the plates referenced were of raptors but there are eagles shown there.

Regarding the Mexican national bird and displays of it, also a circular opinion and apparent perception and I leave this with the thought others here may see tings with a better class of prescription pharmacueticals because I just don't see it. It is an eagle succeeding over a live snake. Pure and simple

Here is a crested toucan for you guys and you can tell me if it is American or not and what the origin might have been. Maybe it is more like Woody Woodpecker than an eagle and that would explain it.

Cheers

GC

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Fernando, still fascinated by the markings you have shown from the blade.

Me too, Jim; markings are one of the most captivating parts i find in weapons.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Where are they situated ...

At the forte, said the guy in the beginning

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... and any chance that close ups might show them in place? ...

I am trying; not an easy task, though. The owner's enthusiasm cooled down a lot when he realized this is no Islamic "medieval" sword

[fernando]

How about this being a stylized bird ... you know, artist's imagination.
... Like a totemic figure ?

Oh, forget it

It's just that i think i have seen this type of beak before; a deja vu thing ?!