A Very Old Kris

Spunjer · 17th August 2012, 08:12 AM

so i reckon this kris is older than dirt then, right? lol, just kidding

excellent discussion so far guys, please keep it up. lorenz my friend, your research has come a long way since our last conversation on this subject matter! very impressive!!! please keep it up. i really thought we could get together for some sarsi and sisig this coming january for my bro's wedding, but since that was cancelled i will have to wait another year, lol.
on the side note, i can't help but notice the similarity of the wirework form the gold handle dagger handle on top of this page to sajen's gunong:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15927

Gustav · 17th August 2012, 01:06 PM

Spunjer, your kris share some similar features with this one, which perhaps even could be older, becouse it appears to have posessed a straight gonjo once:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15256

The tang of this one is disturbed, yet it also seems to be between square and rounded.

We will never know, how looks like the tang of this one, also straight gonjo:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

It seems to me also, the two linked kris are older becouse of features of Gandhik.They are close to very close to Javanese keris; the gandhik of your kris is already almost like this strange mixed Maguindanao/Maranao gandhik, which pops up so often in the last time.

Perhaps is your kris a very early Mindanao kris?

Battara · 17th August 2012, 04:42 PM

I would say that the top one of your pictures (the one with the early golden hilt) is Sulu, although that early back we are not as sure because there are few examples from that period.

Gustav · 17th August 2012, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I would say that the top one of your pictures (the one with the early golden hilt) is Sulu, although that early back we are not as sure because there are few examples from that period.

I ask me if there are non-Sulu krises with straight gonjo at all. If it would be true, we could suppose the straight gonjo dissapeared (or nearly dissapeared) before kris reached Mindanao (from Sulu).

One more kris with straight gonjo Gavin sold a time ago:

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s250_full.html

Spunjer's kris is really interesting becouse of its very complete early kris features, together with Gandhik area which looks Mindanao to me.

Would you agree on it?

Battara · 18th August 2012, 02:30 AM

Oh no question that Spunger's kris is an early kris (with a great blade!).

Spunjer · 18th August 2012, 12:44 PM

thx for posting additional pictures, gustav! i noticed as well that on those other examples, the asang2x mark is non-existent. looks as if it never had asang2x. the one with the gold hilt: i'm almost certain the tang on that one is circular or squarish, as oppose to the rectangular ones. again, with a narrow base like that, there's nowhere to attach the stirrup, or should i say the stirrup wasn't part of the plan..

Gustav · 18th August 2012, 01:31 PM

Dear Spunjer,

the Sulu kris with golden hilt had a stirrup for asang-asang, yet although the hilt is very early there of course still is some possibility the hilt is later then blade and blade was intended to be without asang-asang.

In Cato's book on page 72 there is a hilt with similar construction of stirrup for asang-asang, which would let us think, this kind to attach asang-asang is also old if not the oldest one.

On your kris I also see somethingwhich could be markings from front asang-asang, yet again, it could be attached later and then dissapeared again.

17th August 2012, 01:06 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Spunjer, your kris share some similar features with this one, which perhaps even could be older, becouse it appears to have posessed a straight gonjo once: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15256 The tang of this one is disturbed, yet it also seems to be between square and rounded. We will never know, how looks like the tang of this one, also straight gonjo: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785 It seems to me also, the two linked kris are older becouse of features of Gandhik.They are close to very close to Javanese keris; the gandhik of your kris is already almost like this strange mixed Maguindanao/Maranao gandhik, which pops up so often in the last time. Perhaps is your kris a very early Mindanao kris? Attached Images

18th August 2012, 01:31 PM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Dear Spunjer, the Sulu kris with golden hilt had a stirrup for asang-asang, yet although the hilt is very early there of course still is some possibility the hilt is later then blade and blade was intended to be without asang-asang. In Cato's book on page 72 there is a hilt with similar construction of stirrup for asang-asang, which would let us think, this kind to attach asang-asang is also old if not the oldest one. On your kris I also see somethingwhich could be markings from front asang-asang, yet again, it could be attached later and then dissapeared again. Attached Images

17th August 2012, 08:12 AM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	so i reckon this kris is older than dirt then, right? lol, just kidding excellent discussion so far guys, please keep it up. lorenz my friend, your research has come a long way since our last conversation on this subject matter! very impressive!!! please keep it up. i really thought we could get together for some sarsi and sisig this coming january for my bro's wedding, but since that was cancelled i will have to wait another year, lol. on the side note, i can't help but notice the similarity of the wirework form the gold handle dagger handle on top of this page to sajen's gunong: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15927

17th August 2012, 04:42 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I would say that the top one of your pictures (the one with the early golden hilt) is Sulu, although that early back we are not as sure because there are few examples from that period.

18th August 2012, 02:30 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Oh no question that Spunger's kris is an early kris (with a great blade!).

18th August 2012, 12:44 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thx for posting additional pictures, gustav! i noticed as well that on those other examples, the asang2x mark is non-existent. looks as if it never had asang2x. the one with the gold hilt: i'm almost certain the tang on that one is circular or squarish, as oppose to the rectangular ones. again, with a narrow base like that, there's nowhere to attach the stirrup, or should i say the stirrup wasn't part of the plan..