A Very Old Kris

migueldiaz · 15th August 2012, 06:41 PM

the tang hole in this one is unique -- it's triangular!

migueldiaz · 15th August 2012, 06:43 PM

this guy i totally missed when i went to the museum this morning. we will see later.

migueldiaz · 15th August 2012, 06:46 PM

another rectangular tang hole, and part of the tang can actually be seen on the specimen.

note: all these pics i'm posting are being cobbled from various sources, but i personally checked out the specimens at the museums, to find out the inferred tang shapes.

migueldiaz · 15th August 2012, 06:47 PM

this hilt is too crumpled and damaged. thus it was impossible to find out what the tang's shape was.

migueldiaz · 15th August 2012, 06:49 PM

this one has a circular hole where the tang passes.

to summarize, as far as these 10th to 13th century a.d. gold hilts are concerned, the vast majority would have inferred square or rectangular tangs.

migueldiaz · 15th August 2012, 06:54 PM

then a hundred or two hundred years later (given that this specimen is estimated to be from the 10th to the 15th century a.d.), we find the bohol kalis with a square tang.

to recap, it appears that for philippine blades we can trace a progression from a round tang (circa 500 b.c. to 100 b.c.), then to a hexagonal one (circa 0 a.d. to 950 a.d.), then finally to the square or rectangular tang (10th to 15th cent. a.d.), even up to now.

i'd just like to qualify that these are anecdotal evidences. and especially for the hexagonal tang (assuming it's really hexagonal -- and i'll try to view the actual specimen the next time i'm in cebu), i think it's too early to say that this tang shape persisted.

most probably it's a simple switch from a round tang, and then to the square or rectangular tang. but the thing is the square or rectangular tang appears to have come up even way earlier, as we've seen.

David · 15th August 2012, 08:18 PM

Miguel, thanks for all these diagrams and research. These gold hilts are indeed quite interesting and beautiful. However, from what i can see in the diagram you presented in post #15, these hilts clearly were not attached to the weapons that we consider to be kris today. Different types of weapons use different types of tangs for different reasons. Indonesian keris still use a round tang because it is a stabbing weapon, not the slashing weapon that the Moro kris developed into, so the stability that the rectangular tang offers along with the a sang-asang is not necessary. So i am not sure that we can use the evidence presented here to make a case for a evolution in these kalis forms from round to hexangular to square or rectangular tangs that we see in Moro kris since we are looking at completely different weapons.

It's fine to use the general terminology of "kalis" to describe all these weapons, but when you use the term in that way, all "Kris" might be "kalis", but clearly not all "kalis" are "kris".

15th August 2012, 06:43 PM	#2
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	this guy i totally missed when i went to the museum this morning. we will see later. Attached Images

15th August 2012, 06:46 PM	#3
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	another rectangular tang hole, and part of the tang can actually be seen on the specimen. note: all these pics i'm posting are being cobbled from various sources, but i personally checked out the specimens at the museums, to find out the inferred tang shapes. Attached Images

15th August 2012, 06:47 PM	#4
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	this hilt is too crumpled and damaged. thus it was impossible to find out what the tang's shape was. Attached Images

15th August 2012, 06:49 PM	#5
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	this one has a circular hole where the tang passes. to summarize, as far as these 10th to 13th century a.d. gold hilts are concerned, the vast majority would have inferred square or rectangular tangs. Attached Images

15th August 2012, 06:54 PM	#6
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	then a hundred or two hundred years later (given that this specimen is estimated to be from the 10th to the 15th century a.d.), we find the bohol kalis with a square tang. to recap, it appears that for philippine blades we can trace a progression from a round tang (circa 500 b.c. to 100 b.c.), then to a hexagonal one (circa 0 a.d. to 950 a.d.), then finally to the square or rectangular tang (10th to 15th cent. a.d.), even up to now. i'd just like to qualify that these are anecdotal evidences. and especially for the hexagonal tang (assuming it's really hexagonal -- and i'll try to view the actual specimen the next time i'm in cebu), i think it's too early to say that this tang shape persisted. most probably it's a simple switch from a round tang, and then to the square or rectangular tang. but the thing is the square or rectangular tang appears to have come up even way earlier, as we've seen. Attached Images

15th August 2012, 06:41 PM	#1
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	the tang hole in this one is unique -- it's triangular! Attached Images

15th August 2012, 08:18 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Miguel, thanks for all these diagrams and research. These gold hilts are indeed quite interesting and beautiful. However, from what i can see in the diagram you presented in post #15, these hilts clearly were not attached to the weapons that we consider to be kris today. Different types of weapons use different types of tangs for different reasons. Indonesian keris still use a round tang because it is a stabbing weapon, not the slashing weapon that the Moro kris developed into, so the stability that the rectangular tang offers along with the a sang-asang is not necessary. So i am not sure that we can use the evidence presented here to make a case for a evolution in these kalis forms from round to hexangular to square or rectangular tangs that we see in Moro kris since we are looking at completely different weapons. It's fine to use the general terminology of "kalis" to describe all these weapons, but when you use the term in that way, all "Kris" might be "kalis", but clearly not all "kalis" are "kris".