Two Arab ex-Enfield Pattern 1853 guns

[adrian]

Hi Rick yes the British made the Pattern 1858 & then the Pattern 1859 as smoothbore Enfield "Rifles" for service in India. They decided, after the Mutiny, to always keep the arms of their Indian troops one generation behind those arms of the regular army.
Adrian

[Mefidk]

Hi Adrian
That is very interesting, thanks for coming in on this. I've heard this mentioned before. I guess that there may be more to the story in this case though, since this lock on one gun at least dates to before the Indian mutiny (1855 contra 1857). Of course the lock may have been replaced by an earlier one, or maybe there were smooth bore P53s in circulation too. I guess a third possibility could be that rifled early Enfields could have been bored smooth for reissue (if that is technically possible ).
Between the two guns we have quite a selection of military stamps on he barrels. I wonder if you know if there is any way to use these stamps to separate colonial issue guns from the regular army, or provide hints to their history?
Chris

[adrian]

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by adrian

The British Govt did not smooth bore rifled guns, so if these are ex Brit Mil barrels the bore out was by a subsequent owner. Best thing would be to post good images of all markings to lock, stock (doubtful that any will still be there) & barrel so we can determine from those what we can. It will entail removing the lock & barrel though to get at all the marks.
Adrian

Once I receive mine, I'll clean up the lock and barrel and take photos of any markings on the lock and barrel. As you mentioned, there is probably stamps on the bottom of the barrels. But I suspect barrel removal may prove difficult, if not impossible without damaging the stock. That is, if the silver decoration surrounding the barrel is attached with small nails. I'll have to wait till it arrives and decide then. Thanks for your input. Most helpful. Rick.

[rickystl]

Well, I "thought" I was to be the co-owner of the second gun. Our Forum member Mefidk cannot find a way to ship this gun from Denmark to the USA. The laws in Denmark do apparently allow a muzzle loading firearm made before 1880 to be shipped. In spite of this, the local Denmark Postal Service does not want to ship it anyway. Thir own rules. Apparently we can get UPS to ship it - for $580USD!!!!! Others either don't want to ship it, or want an outragous amount of money to ship it. The situation is even worse for swords or knives.
The irony is that these two guns were shipped to it's current owner in denmark - from Sweden. Apparently, there seems to be no problem shipping these items INTO Denmark, but you can't ship them OUT.
Mefidk has gone above and beyound the call of duty in trying to find a way to ship this gun to me. Thought I would post this story here on the Forum to see if anyone might have a different idea of how to ship this gun to me? Any help much appreciated.

About a year ago I purchased a gun from a fellow Forum member who lives in France. He shipped the antique percussion muzzle loader to me by Postal Service and I received the gun in 5 days!!!

I guess maybe I'm partially "ranting" here. Can't believe the regulations some Countries have on antique weapons. Thanks for reading. Rick.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Rick,
Germany is next door, is the postal service there as 'picky'? or could it be more easily shipped to a member in France and then on from there? Internal E.U. post from Denmark might not be as restrictive for 'antique militaria'. Just thinking aloud
My Regards,
Norman.

[TVV]

I think Norman has the best idea: drive the item to a neighboring EU country with a more reasonable postal service and ship it from there.
Alternatively, maybe mefdik can try to disassemble the gun and ship stock, barrel and lock in separate packages. I had huge problems receiving a dress dagger that I bought on eBay from Italy last year, with the Italian postal service being just as difficult as the Danish appears to be. Finally, the seller disassembled the dagger and it arrived without further problems in separate packages. I am asusming that 3 separate Denmark Postal Service packages will cost less than $580 (UPS quote).

Regards,
Teodor

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by adrian

Hi Rick yes the British made the Pattern 1858 & then the Pattern 1859 as smoothbore Enfield "Rifles" for service in India. They decided, after the Mutiny, to always keep the arms of their Indian troops one generation behind those arms of the regular army.
Adrian

Hi Adrian. I thought I read something about this. Thanks!!