Armour?

Aqtai · 10th September 2005, 06:56 PM

That lorica musculata looks pretty good after just 5 hours work, is it bronze?

On the subject of mail, it's my understanding that mail was usually made from iron rather than steel, there were good sound reasons for this apparently. If I remember rightly if struck, a steel ring was more likely to break where as an iron ring would deform, but not break.

I would't worry too much about the armpits being exposed on the krug-style cuirass, AFAIK the krug, like the chahar aina, was meant to be worn over a mail shirt.

I still haven't found the bazubands I mentioned, but I'm sure I've seen one like yours somewhere. Here are a pair of Iranian bazubands circa 1700 from the Royal Armouries:

With regards to what you said about the size of bazubands, I encountered the same thing with a tulwar I recently bought, the hilt was too small for my hand. I can only surmise that the average Turk/Iranian/Indian circa 1400-1800 was smaller than most modern Europeans.

Solid plate bazubands were also used in India, like this example from "The Arts of War, Arms and Armour of the 7th to 19th centuries, The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art, VOL XXI" by David Alexander. These often look a bit bigger.

Ahriman · 10th September 2005, 08:25 PM

Sorry, the iron-steel thing is my fault. I've learned physics and chemistry, and I worked a year with a machinist. Everywhere I was told that there's no thing like iron wire, or iron plate, because 100% ferrum is absolutely useless... and every iron-based metal which has other components is steel. In this case, the rings are from "mild steel", which is called iron by MOST people. They're technically wrong, but there're only a few idiots like me and my teachers who know this - and I'm triing very hard to be clear, but it's quite difficult when the same thing has a million names.

Much more serious case is that here in Hungary I can't even describe a sword well, as even the semi-experienced folks know only that a "kard" is everything which is straight and longer than a feet, and a "szablya" is everything which is curved... Try telling them it's a yataghan, a shamshir, or a curved kindjal...

No, it's not bronze - it's way too expensive to use it for side projects. This musculata was amongst the first pieces for which I actually did patterns and calculations other than eye measure. I haven't worked on it like a month.

will post more tomorrow.

Battara · 11th September 2005, 06:31 AM

Rasdan is impressively correct about the Moro dimensions. They often used bronze or brass chain-maille, 4-in-1 pattern for conneting the plates. Your's also looks 4-in-1, and you might want to consider brass, which is cheaper and more easy to work. I will start working on restoring my Moro armor in a little bit, repairing the plates and mending the chain-maille (with the exception of the American bullet holes

). You may also want to check out the armor section of swordforum.com as another source, and do a search there on chain-maille. Like your work on the Greek(?) body plating.

rasdan · 11th September 2005, 07:01 AM

Hi all,

While we are on this topic, i am curious. How does the moro attach the hinges of their armour? Is there an extra middle plate inside the armour that holds that thing that holds the armour lock? The attched picture shows a picture of a bugis armour which is strikingly similar to the moro ones. It is donated by a man of bugis descendants in Muar, Johor in 1924 to a museum in KL.

Alam Shah · 11th September 2005, 10:43 AM

Hi Rasdan,

It is locked into position by 2 metal plates which secure the left and right plates together. One for the top and another for the bottom. See links for examples.
Simple locking mechanism.
http://www.eriksedge.com/PH116.jpg

Another variation used by Datuks.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom.../MoroArmor.jpg

rasdan · 11th September 2005, 11:16 AM

Hi Shah,

What i meant is, how the 'rod' for the lock is fixed. In this following picture, we can see that the plates are made of horn, and the 'rod' is brass. How does the brass 'rod' fixed onto the horn plate? I suspect the horn only has holes for the 'rod' and the 'rod' was made separately and welded onto a piece of centre brass plate inside the armour and then fixed with the lock. The extra inner middle plate also can protect the body if the thrust goes directly in the middle of the chest plates. (Just my opinion). We can see the missing 'rod' from the second picture below. Can anybody clear this up?

Thanks,
Rasdan

Aqtai · 11th September 2005, 12:14 PM

I knew I had seen a picture of vambraces similar to the ones you made somewhere. This pic is from G.C. Stones venerable and somewhat outdated "Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times". Unfortunately Stone doesn't mention when these vambraces were made and in what part of India where they used.

This picture is also from the same book, surprisingly it's the only picture I have that shows the back of a krug:

10th September 2005, 06:56 PM	#1
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	That lorica musculata looks pretty good after just 5 hours work, is it bronze? On the subject of mail, it's my understanding that mail was usually made from iron rather than steel, there were good sound reasons for this apparently. If I remember rightly if struck, a steel ring was more likely to break where as an iron ring would deform, but not break. I would't worry too much about the armpits being exposed on the krug-style cuirass, AFAIK the krug, like the chahar aina, was meant to be worn over a mail shirt. I still haven't found the bazubands I mentioned, but I'm sure I've seen one like yours somewhere. Here are a pair of Iranian bazubands circa 1700 from the Royal Armouries: With regards to what you said about the size of bazubands, I encountered the same thing with a tulwar I recently bought, the hilt was too small for my hand. I can only surmise that the average Turk/Iranian/Indian circa 1400-1800 was smaller than most modern Europeans. Solid plate bazubands were also used in India, like this example from "The Arts of War, Arms and Armour of the 7th to 19th centuries, The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art, VOL XXI" by David Alexander. These often look a bit bigger. Last edited by Aqtai; 10th September 2005 at 08:54 PM.

11th September 2005, 07:01 AM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi all, While we are on this topic, i am curious. How does the moro attach the hinges of their armour? Is there an extra middle plate inside the armour that holds that thing that holds the armour lock? The attched picture shows a picture of a bugis armour which is strikingly similar to the moro ones. It is donated by a man of bugis descendants in Muar, Johor in 1924 to a museum in KL. Attached Images

11th September 2005, 11:16 AM	#6
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Shah, What i meant is, how the 'rod' for the lock is fixed. In this following picture, we can see that the plates are made of horn, and the 'rod' is brass. How does the brass 'rod' fixed onto the horn plate? I suspect the horn only has holes for the 'rod' and the 'rod' was made separately and welded onto a piece of centre brass plate inside the armour and then fixed with the lock. The extra inner middle plate also can protect the body if the thrust goes directly in the middle of the chest plates. (Just my opinion). We can see the missing 'rod' from the second picture below. Can anybody clear this up? Thanks, Rasdan Attached Images

10th September 2005, 08:25 PM	#2
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Sorry, the iron-steel thing is my fault. I've learned physics and chemistry, and I worked a year with a machinist. Everywhere I was told that there's no thing like iron wire, or iron plate, because 100% ferrum is absolutely useless... and every iron-based metal which has other components is steel. In this case, the rings are from "mild steel", which is called iron by MOST people. They're technically wrong, but there're only a few idiots like me and my teachers who know this - and I'm triing very hard to be clear, but it's quite difficult when the same thing has a million names. Much more serious case is that here in Hungary I can't even describe a sword well, as even the semi-experienced folks know only that a "kard" is everything which is straight and longer than a feet, and a "szablya" is everything which is curved... Try telling them it's a yataghan, a shamshir, or a curved kindjal... No, it's not bronze - it's way too expensive to use it for side projects. This musculata was amongst the first pieces for which I actually did patterns and calculations other than eye measure. I haven't worked on it like a month. will post more tomorrow.

11th September 2005, 06:31 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Rasdan is impressively correct about the Moro dimensions. They often used bronze or brass chain-maille, 4-in-1 pattern for conneting the plates. Your's also looks 4-in-1, and you might want to consider brass, which is cheaper and more easy to work. I will start working on restoring my Moro armor in a little bit, repairing the plates and mending the chain-maille (with the exception of the American bullet holes ). You may also want to check out the armor section of swordforum.com as another source, and do a search there on chain-maille. Like your work on the Greek(?) body plating.

11th September 2005, 10:43 AM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Rasdan, It is locked into position by 2 metal plates which secure the left and right plates together. One for the top and another for the bottom. See links for examples. Simple locking mechanism. http://www.eriksedge.com/PH116.jpg Another variation used by Datuks. http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom.../MoroArmor.jpg

11th September 2005, 12:14 PM	#7
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I knew I had seen a picture of vambraces similar to the ones you made somewhere. This pic is from G.C. Stones venerable and somewhat outdated "Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times". Unfortunately Stone doesn't mention when these vambraces were made and in what part of India where they used. This picture is also from the same book, surprisingly it's the only picture I have that shows the back of a krug: