Chinese Bronze Age dagger

Multumesc · 10th August 2012, 11:16 AM

A dive in vinegar 9 degrees a few days, wipe with a plastic brush, washing with distilled water, mineral oil lubrication.

fernando · 10th August 2012, 02:01 PM

Quite a comprehensive input Chris

.
This why i am awfully scared to buy bronze age artifacts.
I have had my own sour experience already

fearn · 10th August 2012, 04:41 PM

I'd be careful with the vinegar. My experience with my replica bronze sword is that it cleans quite quickly and produces spots if you aren't careful.

I'd also point out that in EUROPE (I don't know about China), ancient swords were sometimes "killed" by bending them or folding them into unusable loops.

That said, if you're going to buy a reproduction instead of a genuine relic, you might as well buy something from [DELETED] or a similar artist, and find out what they looked like when they were new. [DELETED] work is gorgeous, although it's not, strictly speaking, ethnographic.

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 10th August 2012, 06:52 PM

This item truly is an interesting piece, and most of all bewildering in being posted in the European forum

usually its the other way around! In any case, it is great to learn more on these Chinese bronze age interpretations.

Chris, what an informative and beautifully written description which perfectly itemizes the details in recognizing items which are being produced as antiquities in comparison to the genuine artifacts. Thank you so much for providing this data!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 10th August 2012, 07:17 PM

Adrian, if you find it interesting, we can move this tread to the Ethnographic forum, where further discussion may possibly take place

laEspadaAncha · 10th August 2012, 08:41 PM

I hope my post didn't discourage Adrian from replying...

Thank you both, 'Nando & Jim...

It's always a pleasure to find an oportunity to contribute what little I can. Since opening our shop/gallery, we've had more Chinese lithics come in than I can count, both for consignment and purchase, and in that time I've spent more time analyzing "jade" through a loupe - and chasing down my observations - than I care to imagine...

With lithics, it's simply an issue of looking for tool marks that would be inconsistent for what an item represents itself to be. While this has the benefit of requiring a smaller tool kit than knowing & assessing accuracy of style, unfortunately the best fakers are able to render any sign of modern tooling invisible in the absence of proper lab equipment, making lithics the hardest category of antiquities to easily authenticate IMO.

With old bronze, it's more or less as with any field of collecting in that it's a matter of osmosis as a function of time and experience... primarily knowing how different accretions present themselves and how the patina changes over time - much as with any of the materials used in the edged weapons we study...

Cheers,

Chris

VANDOO · 10th August 2012, 09:28 PM

CHINESE BRONZE ITEMS ARE DEFINITELY BUYER BEWARE.
I ALWAYS BUY BELIEVING IT TO BE A REPLICA, CONSIDERING WORKMANSHIP, MATERIAL (REAL BRONZE OR NOT), PRICE AND ASCETIC APPEAL (IF I LIKE ITS LOOKS)
THEY HAVE BEEN MAKEING EXCELLENT REPLICAS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS AND IF YOU LOOK IN SOME OLD FORUM POSTS YOU WILL SEE PICTURES OF SHOPS FULL OF SUCH ITEMS. GOOD CHINESE REPLICAS ARE WORTH COLLECTING IF THEY ARE PRICED FAIRLY.
IT WOULD APPEAR THIS ITEM IS NOT MADE OF GOOD SOLID BRONZE OR BRASS BUT A MORE BASE AND UNSTABLE METAL WITH A PATINA, STONE AND METAL INSETED INTO IT. I HAVE NOT OBSERVED THIS IN A CHINESE BRONZE ITEM BEFORE BUT DID BUY WHAT APPEARED TO BE A SOUVINEER BRONZE GREEK DAGGER IN ATHENS YEARS AGO. IT DID THE SAME THING AS THE CHINESE SWORD YOU SHOW IT FORMED A CURVE, CRACKED AND BECAME BRITTLE AND CORRODED FROM THE INSIDE. NOTHING COULD BE DONE FOR IT AND I SUSPECT IN TIME IT WILL BREAK UP COMPLETELY.
THE QUALITY AND USE OF AUTHENTIC CHINESE FORMS IN WEAPONS HAS BEEN GOING DOWN FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW AND I SUSPECT THE USE OF THIS BASE METAL IS A MORE RECENT THING IN CHINA. THE GOAL BEING NOT TO MAKE A GOOD TRUE REPLICA BUT TO MAKE AS CHEAPLY AND FAST AS POSSIBLE TO SELL FOR A LARGER PROFIT.

10th August 2012, 04:41 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'd be careful with the vinegar. My experience with my replica bronze sword is that it cleans quite quickly and produces spots if you aren't careful. I'd also point out that in EUROPE (I don't know about China), ancient swords were sometimes "killed" by bending them or folding them into unusable loops. That said, if you're going to buy a reproduction instead of a genuine relic, you might as well buy something from [DELETED] or a similar artist, and find out what they looked like when they were new. [DELETED] work is gorgeous, although it's not, strictly speaking, ethnographic. Best, F Last edited by David; 15th August 2012 at 02:24 PM. Reason: NO COMMERCIAL LINKS!!!!

10th August 2012, 11:16 AM	#1
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 204	A dive in vinegar 9 degrees a few days, wipe with a plastic brush, washing with distilled water, mineral oil lubrication.

10th August 2012, 02:01 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Quite a comprehensive input Chris . This why i am awfully scared to buy bronze age artifacts. I have had my own sour experience already

10th August 2012, 06:52 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This item truly is an interesting piece, and most of all bewildering in being posted in the European forum usually its the other way around! In any case, it is great to learn more on these Chinese bronze age interpretations. Chris, what an informative and beautifully written description which perfectly itemizes the details in recognizing items which are being produced as antiquities in comparison to the genuine artifacts. Thank you so much for providing this data! All the best, Jim

10th August 2012, 07:17 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Adrian, if you find it interesting, we can move this tread to the Ethnographic forum, where further discussion may possibly take place

10th August 2012, 08:41 PM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I hope my post didn't discourage Adrian from replying... Thank you both, 'Nando & Jim... It's always a pleasure to find an oportunity to contribute what little I can. Since opening our shop/gallery, we've had more Chinese lithics come in than I can count, both for consignment and purchase, and in that time I've spent more time analyzing "jade" through a loupe - and chasing down my observations - than I care to imagine... With lithics, it's simply an issue of looking for tool marks that would be inconsistent for what an item represents itself to be. While this has the benefit of requiring a smaller tool kit than knowing & assessing accuracy of style, unfortunately the best fakers are able to render any sign of modern tooling invisible in the absence of proper lab equipment, making lithics the hardest category of antiquities to easily authenticate IMO. With old bronze, it's more or less as with any field of collecting in that it's a matter of osmosis as a function of time and experience... primarily knowing how different accretions present themselves and how the patina changes over time - much as with any of the materials used in the edged weapons we study... Cheers, Chris

10th August 2012, 09:28 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CHINESE BRONZE ITEMS ARE DEFINITELY BUYER BEWARE. I ALWAYS BUY BELIEVING IT TO BE A REPLICA, CONSIDERING WORKMANSHIP, MATERIAL (REAL BRONZE OR NOT), PRICE AND ASCETIC APPEAL (IF I LIKE ITS LOOKS) THEY HAVE BEEN MAKEING EXCELLENT REPLICAS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS AND IF YOU LOOK IN SOME OLD FORUM POSTS YOU WILL SEE PICTURES OF SHOPS FULL OF SUCH ITEMS. GOOD CHINESE REPLICAS ARE WORTH COLLECTING IF THEY ARE PRICED FAIRLY. IT WOULD APPEAR THIS ITEM IS NOT MADE OF GOOD SOLID BRONZE OR BRASS BUT A MORE BASE AND UNSTABLE METAL WITH A PATINA, STONE AND METAL INSETED INTO IT. I HAVE NOT OBSERVED THIS IN A CHINESE BRONZE ITEM BEFORE BUT DID BUY WHAT APPEARED TO BE A SOUVINEER BRONZE GREEK DAGGER IN ATHENS YEARS AGO. IT DID THE SAME THING AS THE CHINESE SWORD YOU SHOW IT FORMED A CURVE, CRACKED AND BECAME BRITTLE AND CORRODED FROM THE INSIDE. NOTHING COULD BE DONE FOR IT AND I SUSPECT IN TIME IT WILL BREAK UP COMPLETELY. THE QUALITY AND USE OF AUTHENTIC CHINESE FORMS IN WEAPONS HAS BEEN GOING DOWN FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW AND I SUSPECT THE USE OF THIS BASE METAL IS A MORE RECENT THING IN CHINA. THE GOAL BEING NOT TO MAKE A GOOD TRUE REPLICA BUT TO MAKE AS CHEAPLY AND FAST AS POSSIBLE TO SELL FOR A LARGER PROFIT.