A gamble, your opinion?

Jean · 3rd August 2012, 09:56 AM

I would be interested to know if the kinatah motifs on the blades shown in some reference books such as "Keris Jawa" or the recent translation of Groneman's book are traditional or modern ones. The books are not with me at present so I can't pinpoint any specific example.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2012, 08:30 AM

Jean. I'm afraid that I cannot answer your question.

I do not have an encyclopaedic knowledge of all possible variations of the motifs specified for use in the Kraton Surakarta, and then there are all the other specified motifs used in other kratons. In fact, I seriously doubt if anybody could answer your question.

If shown a particular kinatah motif I might be able to give an opinion as to whether it was a recent confection, or if it was something old. I can recognise older forms of singo barong, and naga, I can recognise older workmanship in lung-lungan motifs and sekar motifs, but I most certainly cannot ID everything either one way or the other. Haryonoguritno's book might not be a particularly good place to start, there is a lot of current era high art in that book.

One of the problems is this:- although a motif might be specified, the interpretation of the motif can vary from era to era , just the same as a keris dhapur can have exactly the same ricikan but totally different execution, which might be stylistc according to a maker, or stylistic according to an era.

I believe it would only be possible give a determination as to age and conformity with a set motif upon an individual basis, I don't think it would be possible to declare definitively that a certain example of a motif was the only valid way for that motif to be interpreted.

I have copies of the pattern books of several pendok craftsmen who work and who have worked in the Solo idiom. Throughout these books there are motifs that have the same name, but if you place each maker's pattern alongside the others, you will see significant variation in detail. All are valid renditions of the motif, but they vary. We can expect a similar thing in most, if not all craft work.

This variation becomes even greater when a motif transfers from one vehicle to another, for instance, a motif used in batik work and then used in some other form of decorative art. One such motif is the well known parang rusak. It is a common batik motif, and it is also a common pendok motif. The pendok motif contains the essential elements of the batik motif, but it varies greatly in detail. You can see the same thing over and over again in various motifs.

The information you are seeking is just too diverse to pin down to some sort of easily accessible formula or matrix, to understand the answers to the question you have raised we need to look at many, many examples that spread over many years and many forms, then we may be able to make a reasonable guess.

Jean · 5th August 2012, 09:19 AM

Hello Alan,
Thank you and I realize that my question is impossible to reply but you actually confirmed that many of the kinatah blades shown in the book "Keris Jawa" are recent pieces. Upon my return I will try to show more specimens of kinatah emas blades and I encourage other members to do the same just for sharing this nice art work, whether old or not.

Regards

VANDOO · 5th August 2012, 07:42 PM

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING, A BIT OVER MY HEAD AS ONE NOT TOO SCHOOLED IN THE KERIS BUT INTERESTING AND I CAN CERTIANLY ENJOY THE PICTURES ALONG WITH EVERYONE.

THE ONE EXAMPLE PICTURED INCORPORATES 4 DIFFERENT ANIMALS AND COVERS THE BLADE FROM FORTE TO TIP. IS THIS A RECENT EXAMPLE WHERE THE ARTIST WANTED TO INCORPORATE AS MANY HONORS AS POSSIBLE ON ONE BLADE? I SUSPECT THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN DONE ON A GOOD OLD EXAMPLE AS EACH METAL /HONOR WOULD LIKELY BE AWARDED SEPARATELY NOT LUMPED TOGETHER. THIS LOOKS ALL RIGHT AS ART BUT WOULD IT BE LIKELY AS AN HONOR AWARDED?.
WHAT ANIMALS ARE TRADITIONALY USED? THE EXAMPLE STATED ABOVE HAS A LION,DEER, WATER BUFFALOW OR COW AND AN ELEPHANT. THE ONLY OTHER ONES I CAN THINK OF ARE NAGAS/ DRAGONS AND PEOPLE OR BUDDA. ARE THESE THE ONLY TRADITIONAL DESIGNS USED OR ARE THERE OTHERS?
DOES THE FLORAL DESIGNS REPRESENT SOME HONOR OR ARE THEY THERE JUST TO EMBELISH THE DESIGN AND HONORED FIGURES.
THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW MUCH ALWAYS ASK THE MOST QUESTIONS
HOPEFULLY AT BEST THEY WILL BE GOOD QUESTIONS.

Sajen · 7th August 2012, 03:09 PM

Have received the keris and it is not so good as supposed but also not bad as many I have seen before. Here some first fast taken pictures.

Sajen · 7th August 2012, 03:15 PM

The kinatah seems to be from brass and very thin gold washed.

Sajen · 7th August 2012, 03:44 PM

And here, since Jean asked for, pictures of an IMHO old kinatah blade.

Jean · 7th August 2012, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

The kinatah seems to be from brass and very thin gold washed.

Hello Detlef,
You may test the presence of gold at a jeweller's shop or by using a gold test kit. I don't see clearly the presence of brass on these pictures as the kinatah looks shiny. May be low carat and thin gold coat? High gold content kinatah (22 kt) has a deeper colour.

Regards

7th August 2012, 03:09 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,243	Have received the keris and it is not so good as supposed but also not bad as many I have seen before. Here some first fast taken pictures. Attached Images

7th August 2012, 03:44 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,243	And here, since Jean asked for, pictures of an IMHO old kinatah blade. Attached Images

3rd August 2012, 09:56 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I would be interested to know if the kinatah motifs on the blades shown in some reference books such as "Keris Jawa" or the recent translation of Groneman's book are traditional or modern ones. The books are not with me at present so I can't pinpoint any specific example. Regards

5th August 2012, 08:30 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Jean. I'm afraid that I cannot answer your question. I do not have an encyclopaedic knowledge of all possible variations of the motifs specified for use in the Kraton Surakarta, and then there are all the other specified motifs used in other kratons. In fact, I seriously doubt if anybody could answer your question. If shown a particular kinatah motif I might be able to give an opinion as to whether it was a recent confection, or if it was something old. I can recognise older forms of singo barong, and naga, I can recognise older workmanship in lung-lungan motifs and sekar motifs, but I most certainly cannot ID everything either one way or the other. Haryonoguritno's book might not be a particularly good place to start, there is a lot of current era high art in that book. One of the problems is this:- although a motif might be specified, the interpretation of the motif can vary from era to era , just the same as a keris dhapur can have exactly the same ricikan but totally different execution, which might be stylistc according to a maker, or stylistic according to an era. I believe it would only be possible give a determination as to age and conformity with a set motif upon an individual basis, I don't think it would be possible to declare definitively that a certain example of a motif was the only valid way for that motif to be interpreted. I have copies of the pattern books of several pendok craftsmen who work and who have worked in the Solo idiom. Throughout these books there are motifs that have the same name, but if you place each maker's pattern alongside the others, you will see significant variation in detail. All are valid renditions of the motif, but they vary. We can expect a similar thing in most, if not all craft work. This variation becomes even greater when a motif transfers from one vehicle to another, for instance, a motif used in batik work and then used in some other form of decorative art. One such motif is the well known parang rusak. It is a common batik motif, and it is also a common pendok motif. The pendok motif contains the essential elements of the batik motif, but it varies greatly in detail. You can see the same thing over and over again in various motifs. The information you are seeking is just too diverse to pin down to some sort of easily accessible formula or matrix, to understand the answers to the question you have raised we need to look at many, many examples that spread over many years and many forms, then we may be able to make a reasonable guess.

5th August 2012, 09:19 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you and I realize that my question is impossible to reply but you actually confirmed that many of the kinatah blades shown in the book "Keris Jawa" are recent pieces. Upon my return I will try to show more specimens of kinatah emas blades and I encourage other members to do the same just for sharing this nice art work, whether old or not. Regards

5th August 2012, 07:42 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS IS VERY INTERESTING, A BIT OVER MY HEAD AS ONE NOT TOO SCHOOLED IN THE KERIS BUT INTERESTING AND I CAN CERTIANLY ENJOY THE PICTURES ALONG WITH EVERYONE. THE ONE EXAMPLE PICTURED INCORPORATES 4 DIFFERENT ANIMALS AND COVERS THE BLADE FROM FORTE TO TIP. IS THIS A RECENT EXAMPLE WHERE THE ARTIST WANTED TO INCORPORATE AS MANY HONORS AS POSSIBLE ON ONE BLADE? I SUSPECT THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN DONE ON A GOOD OLD EXAMPLE AS EACH METAL /HONOR WOULD LIKELY BE AWARDED SEPARATELY NOT LUMPED TOGETHER. THIS LOOKS ALL RIGHT AS ART BUT WOULD IT BE LIKELY AS AN HONOR AWARDED?. WHAT ANIMALS ARE TRADITIONALY USED? THE EXAMPLE STATED ABOVE HAS A LION,DEER, WATER BUFFALOW OR COW AND AN ELEPHANT. THE ONLY OTHER ONES I CAN THINK OF ARE NAGAS/ DRAGONS AND PEOPLE OR BUDDA. ARE THESE THE ONLY TRADITIONAL DESIGNS USED OR ARE THERE OTHERS? DOES THE FLORAL DESIGNS REPRESENT SOME HONOR OR ARE THEY THERE JUST TO EMBELISH THE DESIGN AND HONORED FIGURES. THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW MUCH ALWAYS ASK THE MOST QUESTIONS HOPEFULLY AT BEST THEY WILL BE GOOD QUESTIONS.

7th August 2012, 03:15 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,243	The kinatah seems to be from brass and very thin gold washed.