Rhino Khanjar for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I havent really given it much thought :P



Its cloth. Wool I think. Will get pictures of the back side which has a slot for a work knife.



Possible, but whats your argument for that? I am personally not fussed about the age of this piece :P but I am interested in the rationale used to decide that the backside was once the front :-)

Salaams A.alnakkas No arguement just either discussion or debate.. Brought onto the Forums hot anvil to be hammered out .. The two concentric rings of pins both at the top and bottom of the back of this hilt were for securing the large disc buttons and the few pins at the narrow part in the centre are for securing the silver ferrule arrangement...all now of course removed as the maker switched this hilt to a new Khanjar... perhaps 60 years ago which I think is why the translucency is so good. This is a switched and turned hilt.

At #1 you were asking about the age... has this now become irrelevant? Sixty years old is considerable for an Omani Khanjar and further if the original item was the same age then you have a Khanjar made from 120 years old artefacts..

The decoration on the top of the pommel is incredible.. see "The Omani Khanjar" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 see #48 where I refer to this phenomenal design as being linked to the Rhino horn natural form..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams A.alnakkas No arguement just either discussion or debate.. Brought onto the Forums hot anvil to be hammered out .. The two concentric rings of pins both at the top and bottom of the back of this hilt were for securing the large disc buttons and the few pins at the narrow part in the centre are for securing the silver ferrule arrangement...all now of course removed as the maker switched this hilt to a new Khanjar... perhaps 60 years ago which I think is why the translucency is so good. This is a switched and turned hilt.

argument: a reason given in proof or rebuttal; amongst other possible uses, according to Merriam webster online dictionary

Ibrahim, I have no problem with the conclusion you have given, but rather with the reasons for the conclusion which so far do not exist. Perhaps you have seen this sort of pin style used to hold the silver filigree but isnt it generally held by a much larger pin?

Unless you have other examples of such pins used to hold the filigree then I cannot see any proof given by you. Though I must say I find the turned hilt point to have some merit, but its possible that the back side is decorated that way and when it was switched its left the way it is? That ofcourse, is just a guess as this is not the first Omani item with a decorated back side. Its simply the first many have seen with such decoration

At #1 you were asking about the age... has this now become irrelevant? Sixty years old is considerable for an Omani Khanjar and further if the original item was the same age then you have a Khanjar made from 120 years old artefacts..

I did but its better to avoid 'pinpoint' accuracy (pun intended) in dating items which do not have a date written on them. So its simple, I am not fussed with the 'precise' date and simply satisfied with early 20th century or whatever because stating whether its 80 years old or 60 years old without any reasons seems abit too much. Keep in mind that I would be really happy if this is 60 years old because thats pretty old for a khanjar, considering how many times the blade and hilt get refitted! :P

Though you deserve the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you said the age due to a particular style used 60 or 80 years ago? I know you have stated "they dont make them like these anymore" or something like that, but it was vague in the sense that it could be directed to the scabbard or the hilt, so could you clear that out? :-)

The decoration on the top of the pommel is incredible.. see "The Omani Khanjar" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 see #48 where I refer to this phenomenal design as being linked to the Rhino horn natural form..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I thought so aswell, but lets not give our guesses more than what they deserve. I think moving from a guess to assuming the guess as a fact is pointless and counterproductive.

Regards,

Lotfy

[Dom]

My Dear Bro.
I have let the wave pass ...
before coming to congratulate you for this new acquisition
I'm especially happy for you because this dagger is belong to your roots,
and is an exceptional specimen

no need to add, anything, everything was said
otherwise that ... congratulations ... مبروك أخي

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

Allah yebarek feek Dom thanks alot!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

argument: a reason given in proof or rebuttal; amongst other possible uses, according to Merriam webster online dictionary

Ibrahim, I have no problem with the conclusion you have given, but rather with the reasons for the conclusion which so far do not exist. Perhaps you have seen this sort of pin style used to hold the silver filigree but isnt it generally held by a much larger pin?

Unless you have other examples of such pins used to hold the filigree then I cannot see any proof given by you. Though I must say I find the turned hilt point to have some merit, but its possible that the back side is decorated that way and when it was switched its left the way it is? That ofcourse, is just a guess as this is not the first Omani item with a decorated back side. Its simply the first many have seen with such decoration



I did but its better to avoid 'pinpoint' accuracy (pun intended) in dating items which do not have a date written on them. So its simple, I am not fussed with the 'precise' date and simply satisfied with early 20th century or whatever because stating whether its 80 years old or 60 years old without any reasons seems abit too much. Keep in mind that I would be really happy if this is 60 years old because thats pretty old for a khanjar, considering how many times the blade and hilt get refitted! :P

Though you deserve the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you said the age due to a particular style used 60 or 80 years ago? I know you have stated "they dont make them like these anymore" or something like that, but it was vague in the sense that it could be directed to the scabbard or the hilt, so could you clear that out? :-)



I thought so aswell, but lets not give our guesses more than what they deserve. I think moving from a guess to assuming the guess as a fact is pointless and counterproductive.

Regards,

Lotfy

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ You are of course right to request proper researched proof, alas, this weapon came out of the dark ages here... before 1970.
The indicators for the leather strips are there...(they are peculiar to that specific region only) as in my last e mail.

On age ~ I always try and get closer with the estimate so rather than late or early 20th C. I have given what I believe is a fair estimate.... adding 10 years because of what I consider is a switched hilt ... and not ignoring the potential of that hilt coming from an equally old dagger.

This family has over 100 years of experience and when I am uncertain I go ask... Then when there is further uncertainty I hit the workshops...My entire team therefor get a crack at this. I think theres about 250 years experience altogether..The originator of the Khanjar died many years ago so for sure they dont make them like that anymore. It may contain pin styles long forgotten.

What is very exceptional is the close pin design in the pommel head. I have not seen that before. To me it is a very important discovery. It mirrors the design of Rhino( I mean in its spaghetti end formation or what I perceive as octagonal end form of its threads..seen in your same photo at #1 picture 5)...and is I believe vital to our understanding of that animals bearing on Omani Khanjar design.( My hypothesis is added at the end)

Nice photo that one by the way as it gives the perfect shot of Rhino Horn on an Omani dagger i.e. translucent as opposed to the oily dark type often seen on Yemeni daggers. However the pin design is a show stopper... #1 picture 5.

Back to the back~ so to speak. If I am right about the age of the dagger... and roughly about right on the age of the previous one ~ That means I am considering the work style from over 100 years ago based on the pins set in two concentric rings at the top and base of the back of the hilt which I point to as being switched from another Khanjar etc. I have to say that delving back so far into the dark ages really does require careful thought, much logic and a fair degree of working without a safety net...however nothing here is written in stone and I often find myself backtracking after I make an error or a correction to see how best to adjust for damage control...End of excuses. Over to the workshops boys...
They say:

"Hilt turned. These are old pins holding the previous decoration to the horn. This is Rhino so would be re-used. Excellent work ... Pommel top highly exceptional. Can't figure out what happened to the front at the top of the TEE... which appears to be a silver plate instead of pins... maybe owing to what was there before when it was the reverse"

So good enough? There isn't any "proof" except from reverse engineering the hilt and adding the blend of very considerable experience ~ and bearing in mind not just the timeframe but the region. The proof, in fact, is being written as we develop the Forum... and as you have seen much of the work conducted on Omani ethnographic weapons is groundbreaking...If it was available in a book I would say so; if I so saw!

Hypothesis..I put it to Forum that the design on the pommel top mirrors Rhino pattern (#1 picture 5.) and further, that the apparent curve in the scabbard is in recognition of the Rhino. ( also discussed at "The Omani Khanjar") http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 at # 50

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ You are of course right to request proper researched proof, alas, this weapon came out of the dark ages here... before 1970.
The indicators for the leather strips are there...(they are peculiar to that specific region only) as in my last e mail.

There are no leather strips. Its wool :-)

On age ~ I always try and get closer with the estimate so rather than late or early 20th C. I have given what I believe is a fair estimate.... adding 10 years because of what I consider is a switched hilt ... and not ignoring the potential of that hilt coming from an equally old dagger.

I very much respect your desire to be precise with the age, but there is no 100% answer really.

What is very exceptional is the close pin design in the pommel head. I have not seen that before. To me it is a very important discovery. It mirrors the design of Rhino( I mean in its spaghetti end formation or what I perceive as octagonal end form of its threads..seen in your same photo at #1 picture 5)...and is I believe vital to our understanding of that animals bearing on Omani Khanjar design.( My hypothesis is added at the end)

This is the only one I found in Artzi's site with similar pin decoration:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3186

Artzi suggests its 19th century though.

Nice photo that one by the way as it gives the perfect shot of Rhino Horn on an Omani dagger i.e. translucent as opposed to the oily dark type often seen on Yemeni daggers. However the pin design is a show stopper... #1 picture 5.

Agree, though you will find that Yemeni's have a larger preference of Rhino and categorize them within certain categories. Saifani being the most desired, so I have heard.

Back to the back~ so to speak. If I am right about the age of the dagger... and roughly about right on the age of the previous one ~ That means I am considering the work style from over 100 years ago based on the pins set in two concentric rings at the top and base of the back of the hilt which I point to as being switched from another Khanjar etc. I have to say that delving back so far into the dark ages really does require careful thought, much logic and a fair degree of working without a safety net...however nothing here is written in stone and I often find myself backtracking after I make an error or a correction to see how best to adjust for damage control...End of excuses. Over to the workshops boys...

Nothing wrong with that mate.

They say:

"Hilt turned. These are old pins holding the previous decoration to the horn. This is Rhino so would be re-used. Excellent work ... Pommel top highly exceptional. Can't figure out what happened to the front at the top of the TEE... which appears to be a silver plate instead of pins... maybe owing to what was there before when it was the reverse"

I am interested if your workshop have done such work before, or are they basing this on gut instinct maybe? included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense. I highly doubt such fine and thin silver pins can hold filigree on a hilt that is used in dances, combat etc for long. I guess we need more examples to know for sure

Hypothesis..I put it to Forum that the design on the pommel top mirrors Rhino pattern (#1 picture 5.) and further, that the apparent curve in the scabbard is in recognition of the Rhino. ( also discussed at "The Omani Khanjar") http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 at # 50

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Its an interesting hypothesis for sure, we have a wealth of information here and elsewhere and I am looking through sites for more examples to compare with because one example is not much to build on!

[A.alnakkas]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=rhino

See post 14. I think its a similar pin design (front that is, no pictures of the back side)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

There are no leather strips. Its wool :-)



I very much respect your desire to be precise with the age, but there is no 100% answer really.



This is the only one I found in Artzi's site with similar pin decoration:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3186

Artzi suggests its 19th century though.



Agree, though you will find that Yemeni's have a larger preference of Rhino and categorize them within certain categories. Saifani being the most desired, so I have heard.



Nothing wrong with that mate.



I am interested if your workshop have done such work before, or are they basing this on gut instinct maybe? included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense. I highly doubt such fine and thin silver pins can hold filigree on a hilt that is used in dances, combat etc for long. I guess we need more examples to know for sure



Its an interesting hypothesis for sure, we have a wealth of information here and elsewhere and I am looking through sites for more examples to compare with because one example is not much to build on!

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ It appears that the leather strips have been replaced by wool.. ( I thought perhaps the leather had deteriorated ) Probably replaced when it broke down. It appears they also used strips of felt.

Artzis weapon is a Salalah style. It could be late 19th C. Nice pin work.

See The Omani Khanjar http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878 for a great reference on Rhino by Spiral plus the different names of Rhino of which Z'raf is a name applied here whilst the others appear to be used in the Yemen... and comparing the two regions I have no idea what percentage of hilts were Rhino in each but agree Yemeni work with Rhino hilt "seems" more common.

You state that Quote, (included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense.) Unquote.

~Please show me a full picture as what I see looks like it is not an Omani Khanjar but Habaabi... Southern corner of Saudia. It appears that Yemeni/Saudia construction of hilts often used those big pins where as in Oman they were much finer~ Searching about I see #25 and a full picture of the dagger to which you refer... Its Habaabi... Saudia.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

There are no leather strips. Its wool :-)



I very much respect your desire to be precise with the age, but there is no 100% answer really.



This is the only one I found in Artzi's site with similar pin decoration:

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3186

Artzi suggests its 19th century though.




Agree, though you will find that Yemeni's have a larger preference of Rhino and categorize them within certain categories. Saifani being the most desired, so I have heard.



Nothing wrong with that mate.



I am interested if your workshop have done such work before, or are they basing this on gut instinct maybe? included is a picture of the pin that hold the filigree of my other Omani khanjar, its equally old and the pin is much larger which makes sense. I highly doubt such fine and thin silver pins can hold filigree on a hilt that is used in dances, combat etc for long. I guess we need more examples to know for sure



Its an interesting hypothesis for sure, we have a wealth of information here and elsewhere and I am looking through sites for more examples to compare with because one example is not much to build on!

Salaams ~ For library purposes the photo at the base of your post at #38 is not an Omani Khanjar but comes from Saudia Arabia in the region to the south whose main port is Jazzan and cities include Abha and Habaabi The latter giving its name to this dagger. Habaabi. The construction though they look quite similar to Omani Khanjars is on closer inspection markedly different employing other techniques typical on Yemeni work (It was part of the Yemen circa pre 1923..) Use of mixed silver/copper and slight differences in the design such as a slightly larger crown and in one variant a much narrower body to the entire item. Designs favour two large buttons culminating at a point normally ending under the central decorative ferrule in mid hilt. The buttons unlike Omani buttons are fastened with a large peg or pin.

It is not chrystal clear what the exact linkage is between this region and Oman though obviously as a port Jazzan would have been engaged in heavy sea trade with Muscat and Zanzibar and I suggest the latter as a more likely consideration for the infusion of this design after its invention by one of the wives of Said bin Sultan in about 1840 (Sheherazade the Persian Princess) because of the Sultans engagement with that area essentially bringing it under Omani rule. Equally imperfect is the relationship between the Omani Royal Khanjar and this Habaabi weapon and to what extent it draws its style from the Omani type as it could also be influenced by the Muscat Khanjar which is also a 7 ringer.

It is because of its geographical location (and timings of the design of the Royal Omani Khanjar) that I favour the Royal link but research is as yet not forthcoming to pinpoint the question for now. Another question is why was it linked to Habaabi and not say Jazzan the sea port?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

on the same subject, the khanjars
it is difficult to determine, what is the existing weapons,
before the reconquest of the country by Abdelaziz Al Saud, and those produced after ...
here, we are fortunate to have a photo of daggers collected at the end of last century ... so, before this pivotal period

from a book "Le catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes, européennes et orientales" - Charles Buttin (in French)
book published in 1933, after the death of the collector, who began his collection before 1900
This is a rare book, and which consists of 284 pages and 32 sheets (annex) with ± 40 edged weapons in each photo,

the quality of my scan is average, but if I increase the size ... more, I'll get a blurry picture as a result.
the khanjars in display, are without doubt from the 19th century, if you want a fork of dates; let said going from 1850 to 1900
I let you appreciate, my friends, I did not resist sharing it with you

à +

Dom

ps/ the collector, and the book itself, are really references in the matter

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Dom

on the same subject, the khanjars
it is difficult to determine, what is the existing weapons,
before the reconquest of the country by Abdelaziz Al Saud, and those produced after ...
here, we are fortunate to have a photo of daggers collected at the end of last century ... so, before this pivotal period

from a book "Le catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes, européennes et orientales" - Charles Buttin (in French)
book published in 1933, after the death of the collector, who began his collection before 1900
This is a rare book, and which consists of 284 pages and 32 sheets (annex) with ± 40 edged weapons in each photo,

the quality of my scan is average, but if I increase the size ... more, I'll get a blurry picture as a result.
the khanjars in display, are without doubt from the 19th century, if you want a fork of dates; let said going from 1850 to 1900
I let you appreciate, my friends, I did not resist sharing it with you

à +

Dom

ps/ the collector, and the book itself, are really references in the matter

References;
A. Kattara for comments. from #300 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

B. The Omani Khanjar. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14878

Salaams Dom,
Thank you for posting this detail. I know the author is well respected. May we have the full package of information to go with the pictures so we can put it into perspective please?
It will be seen that it is easy to confuse Habaabi daggers with Omani. Both styles of Habaabi have the 7 rings and one is fatter whilst the other is quite slender in the body.They look like Omani Khanjars.

The crown, however, tends to be slightly larger than the Omani. Typically the hilt has two facing large buttons with the pointed decoration often hidden under a central ferrule in mid hilt. The decorative style of the triangular net holding the lower scabbard steady on the belt is different in both styles.

This weapon is discussed at The Omani Khanjar in some detail with photos. My hypothesis on this almost identical design is that the Habaabi design was taken from the circa 1840 Royal Khanjar style designed by The Persian princess and wife of Said bin Sultan who reigned 1804 to his death off Zanzibar in 1856. Sheherazad was her name.

It is clear that no other Yemeni design exists with such strong similarity to an Omani Dagger (the area was Yemeni before circa 1920) and Scabbard and I quote the sea trade link and the proximity to Zanzibar and Muscat (and naturally the sea trade route between) as the main reason for the transmission of style..

I repeat that the two are easily confused.

Posting Butin would be a great asset to our library. Thank you Dom.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.